Transcript

00:09
Ellie
Hi, Kevin, and welcome so much to the elusive consumer. We are really excited to talk to you today about all things marketing, as well as your role at Vida Health.

00:20
Kevin Knight
Thanks for having me.

00:22
Ellie
So, before we go into the specifics of your role and what working for a med tech company looks like, could you tell us how you first developed your love for marketing?

00:33
Kevin Knight
Oh, that’s. I mean, we’re going way back now. It actually goes back to high school. I didn’t know what marketing was. My dad worked in finance for a nonprofit his entire career. My mom was a teacher, and I didn’t know that there was anything like this. I mean, I grew up thinking, okay, I guess they’re sort of lawyers and doctors and, you know, maybe business people or whatever. And then I took a class in high school on business, and I think that my teacher wanted to give me a little bit of a nudge toward increased productivity in my high school career. And so she came to me one day and said, hey, I signed you up for the future business leaders of America. Some sort of competition. And I was like, what do you mean? Like what?

01:18
Kevin Knight
And she’s like, yeah, it’s in a couple of weeks on a Saturday. I’m like, you signed me up or something on a Saturday? And she’s like, yeah, sorry. You’re already committed. I’m like, all right. And so I went to it, and one of the things that they had us do was take a test on marketing. And this was multiple choice. It might have been some sort of, like, essay component or something to it. I don’t remember. I was, like, 16 years old, and as I went through, I was like, this is just the most intuitive stuff in the world. Like, this is the easiest test I’ve ever taken. And I came in first place. And from then on, I just started thinking about.

01:51
Kevin Knight
I love this idea of connecting a buyer with the product that they’re looking for and doing so in sort of creative and fun ways. In my early college years, my neighbor and I started a window washing business, and that was, I guess the first ad I ever wrote is we passed out flyers in our neighborhood that said, we got this kind of blurry font, and it said, eyes going bad. Maybe it’s just those dirty windows, and then had our number to call us, and the rest is history, as they say.

02:24
Ellie
Very nice. I always love talking to someone who’s truly passionate about their role. I mean, we all have works and jobs, but finding people who have that internal sort of drive for what they do is always more fascinating. So you’ve worked at some of the big tech companies, everything from Google, Microsoft, Meta and Pinterest. Can you talk us through that career journey and how those roles shaped your professional view of marketing?

02:58
Kevin Knight
Yeah, you know, that’s interesting too. It’s amazing how if you look back on your career, there were these little moments that stand out to you as being really defining. But at the time they didn’t feel so defining. They certainly didn’t feel like forks in the road. And in my case, I was at MIT doing my interview to hopefully get into business school there. At the MIT Sloan school. I did end up going there. And as I was waiting in the sort of reception area to go have my interview, they had these pamphlets that had kind of sample career trajectories and there was one for entrepreneurship.

03:29
Kevin Knight
And it said, the first x number of years of your career you should spend working for a big company, make your mistakes on their dime, learn as much as you can, and then sort of move smaller and smaller until maybe eventually you start your own company. You’re never really going to retire because you’re always going to keep advising and keep some figures in different pies. And I don’t think I thought that much of that at the time. But it’s amazing however many years, 1516 years later, I still remember that. And it actually has served as a pretty interesting blueprint for my career. So I went to work for Google when it was about a 20,000 person company.

04:10
Kevin Knight
And then I graduated from business school in what is probably the worst time in history to graduate from business school, which was the summer of zero nine. So everything had collapsed and nobody was hiring. And Google instituted a hiring freeze on all of their non engineering roles. And so Microsoft swept in much bigger organization, about 90,000 people at the time. And they could absorb, there were like 18 of us interns at Google, at least in that sort of part of the business. They could absorb most of us. And so I think at least half of us ended up at Microsoft. And that was fascinating. I learned how a different sort of big company, publicly traded company, operates things, how it runs things, got a lot of exposure to global business there.

04:50
Kevin Knight
But I still found myself itching to do what I had initially intended to do, which was start with the Google experience and then maybe move upstream from there. When I had the chance to join Facebook in 2010, which was at the time a pretty small company of 2000 people, I took the leap, moved down to the Bay Area and learned so much. And what I learned there is how fulfilling it was to scale a company, and a lot of people refer to that as building a company, and certainly it is in many respects. But I was early enough at Facebook to know the people who were truly early at Facebook. These are the people who had to figure it out. And the war stories they had were just absolutely exhilarating. And so I found myself increasingly wanting to have that truly early experience.

05:42
Kevin Knight
And so when I had the chance to join Pinterest, when it was 100 people, I jumped at that chance and really got that. Let’s figure it out. Build stage experience. I joined about 18 months before Pinterest monetized. I was very involved in the monetization strategy. I personally approved all of the ads that ran on Pinterest for the first six months that we had ads just to make sure we set the right tone. So I really was able to get that experience that a lot of my friends who’d been really early at Facebook got. And then I wanted to have the CMO role at a smaller company. So the company called expert voice that I had been advising, they asked me to come be CMO. You know, it was definitely bittersweet to leave Pinterest.

06:25
Kevin Knight
I loved and continued to love that place, but I went to my first CMO gig, and then maybe I can pause there. But that’s sort of how I progressed from sort of big to small.

06:37
Ellie
That’s quite the journey. And with all the big players as well, we’ll touch upon how it is and what it’s like working at a smaller organization versus the big players and what marketing looks like in terms of differences between the two. Firstly, I know you’ve talked about differences in terms of B two B versus b two C marketing, and you’re quite adamant that people should stop from separating those two. Could you elaborate a bit on that?

07:08
Kevin Knight
You bet. I understand why from a budgetary standpoint, and even from an organizational standpoint, you might need to have a line of demarcation between B two B and B two C. But from a career perspective, I do not think anybody particularly early in their career, should be so quick to define themselves as either a b two B marketer or a b two C marketer. And the reason for that is, as someone who has straddled b, two B and B two C for my entire career, it is amazing how much of one area you draw upon to be really successful in the other area. The way that I generally, and this is, of course, a huge generalization, think of b two C marketing is. It’s quite a bit more emotional in general. Right? You’re trying to get that emotional hook with a consumer.

07:52
Kevin Knight
It’s easier to do that because you can kind of picture the consumer, you can talk to the consumer might be a lot like you. And ultimately you’re just trying to tell stories and really stand out in, particularly in advertising, where there’s a lot of noise and the stuff that stands out and the stuff that gets through and the stuff that evokes the kind of emotion that leads to a purchase tends to be more creative in consumer marketing. And then if you look at b two B, a lot of people think that, oh, it’s unemotional, just stack rank these things and these features matter to me and these features don’t, and it’s a completely unemotional sale, but that’s not true at all. Of course, you’ve still got humans buying these things.

08:32
Kevin Knight
And my favorite example of this is actually Volvo trucks, which is a b two B organization. I don’t know of any consumers who are buying 18 wheel big rigs, its businesses that do that. And Volvo and their agency partners at Forschman, they really picked up on this idea that the people who ultimately were going to place an order for Volvo trucks were dads and husbands and brothers and had friends, and they wanted to be cool, too. And they wanted people to think that it was cool that they drove or bought Volvo trucks. And so out of that insight was born the now infamous Jean Claude Van Damme epic split ad and a whole series of really cool videos that went very viral on YouTube.

09:19
Kevin Knight
And that is, I think, the perfect example of how you can tap into emotion in a b two B sales cycle. If you approach the b two B audience from more of a consumer mindset. Now, at the same time, traditional b two b marketing, I think, makes you really good at sophisticated marketing sequences. You’ve got people at different stages of the funnel and you’re nurturing them and sending them emails, and you are segmenting them and you’re thinking very sophisticatedly about the handoff from one channel, say, ads, to the next channel, email, even before you get a sale. And I think if you bring that rigor and sophistication to consumer marketing, as someone who maybe has spent more of your early career in b two B, it’s going to give you an advantage in b two C marketing as well.

10:10
Kevin Knight
So I see them playing off of one another, because ultimately, the people that we’re selling to, regardless of what we’re marketing, are human.

10:19
Ellie
Absolutely. That’s a really valid point. We always say in market research that if you’ve done b, two b, two c will come much more naturally to you. Because if you’re able to target those hard to reach companies within that b, two b space, then finding the niche audiences or the elusive consumers is going to be considerably easier. So I like that you thought about that in terms of not separating the two. Now, I want touch a little bit on the aspect of social media in both of these, in the regard of b two B and b two C marketing with the rise of various platforms. What is your view on engagement with the two different audiences and using these types of platforms for connecting with business professionals as well as consumers?

11:15
Kevin Knight
You know, I am endlessly surprised by people who continue to think that LinkedIn is the only place to play for b two B now, LinkedIn is a great place to play for b two B, and I probably wouldn’t do a lot of b two C on LinkedIn, but not for the reason people might think. The reason is rather that LinkedIn is pretty expensive, if you think about it, the same people who log into LinkedIn log into Facebook and TikTok and Pinterest and Instagram, and you name it. And if you can find a way of reaching them on those other platforms, it tends to be cheaper because there just tends to be a lot more volume of impressions and also it’s a little bit harder. It takes more effort.

12:00
Kevin Knight
It’s easier to say, hey, LinkedIn, give me everybody with a CMO title who works at a company with this many employees or more to go and build the type of targeting that you would need to reach a similar audience on a consumer platform like a Pinterest, for example, you would have to put a lot more effort into it. And it’s in that effort that comes the reward of lower cpms, lower cpas, lower CPC’s. So I’m a big fan of cross pollinating because at the end of the day, they’re all human.

12:32
Ellie
And what about not just using these different platforms, but also in particular for the b two C, the rise of misinformation that exists on different platforms? How can brands more effectively ensure accuracy and credibility of content that they’re sharing to also avoid it being misused?

12:54
Kevin Knight
Gosh, that takes me back to the early days of Facebook, where advertising on Facebook was nowhere near ubiquitous back in 2010. And I can remember having so many conversations with marketers at big brands whose legal teams were saying, you know what, you can’t market on Facebook. We’re just not going to let you. And as we started to probe and get a little bit deeper into the rationale. They would say things like, well, what if we run an ad or even just post something on Facebook, and then some random person makes a comment, maybe that is construed as a claim on our part. And it was this enormously gray area, which I think has since been very much settled.

13:37
Kevin Knight
However, the underlying concern persists, arguably even more today, which is, well, what if somebody says something that’s fundamentally untrue or unnecessarily unproductively provocative in the same sort of experience in which I’m running my ads? And I don’t know that I have a perfect answer for that. I don’t think anybody does, which is why it continues to be so messy, except to say that the world is messy. And the brands who are willing to wade into the mess and figure out a way to navigate it will reap the rewards. And the brands who sit on the sideline will just have to wait and it’ll all be figured out. But they’ll be late to the game and they will have missed out. On the upside.

14:19
Kevin Knight
But I do think that it is important for brands, and obviously, we see this happening like crazy around Twitter, where it’s. Many folks would say that it’s gotten toxic. And that means you’ve got to, as a marketer, as a CMO, as a CEO, you’ve got to make a decision about how deep you’re willing to wade in and what type of toxicity you’re willing to wade into. But in general, I think the world around us has a degree of toxicity and polarization, and we can’t stick our heads in the sand in the real world any more than we can in the online world. And to use that as an excuse to sit out of advertising probably doesn’t make sense. At the same time, this forms the basis of pinterest ad pitch, right?

15:01
Kevin Knight
Where they’re saying, look, there is a place on the Internet that’s largely free from this sort of riffraff, and LinkedIn would make similar claims and others to varying degrees. And so I do think that the onus is on the platforms to make sure that they keep it as positive as possible so that this doesn’t become a distraction.

15:18
Ellie
Right. And in terms of the corporations and brands that are looking to utilize different channels, whether social media or others, what do you think is the role of marketing and how is it, in terms of the next, let’s say, five years or so, evolving, considering the advancements that also happening in technology, with AI, with VR, with augmented reality and the rest.

15:46
Kevin Knight
Yeah, well, maybe it’s the Sci-Fi that we’ve been exposed to, like Star wars and the Jetsons and so many others, but it is amazing how quickly we humans jump to an interpretation that advancing technology is advancing to an end of ultimately replacing humans. And certainly that has been the case time and again over history. The people who used to operate elevators have been replaced by computers that operate elevators. Even horses have been replaced by cars in most places. So there is an element that has been around for a very long time, ever since the advent of tools, where you can use tools and technology to replace humans, or at least human labor. However, I think the far more interesting side of this coin is how can this technology be brought to bear to unlock greater human potential?

16:46
Kevin Knight
So from, I’ll give an example from healthcare, for example, because I work now at beta health and I’m exposed to this all the time, a lot of people think, well, gosh, it would be so much more efficient if people didn’t have to talk to healthcare providers, if bots could do the whole thing. I mean, okay, yeah, it would be more efficient. But is efficiency the end goal of everything we do? Or to what extent does efficacy play into this? Obviously, in healthcare, efficacy plays a major role. And I think a far more interesting question is to what extent can that technology free up the healthcare providers whose superpower is the fact that they are human and they’re able to connect with other humans on a human level? How can the technology set them up to have more time to use their superpowers?

17:27
Kevin Knight
So in healthcare, you’ve got to do things like take notes after every visit, and you’ve got to do scheduling and all of those types of administrative things. Most people don’t get into healthcare, particularly not providers, because they want to spend time writing down notes and processing paperwork and doing administrative tasks. If technology can do a lot of those things, then the healthcare provider is able to spend much more of their time doing the stuff that draws on their superpower. The same is true here for marketers. Let’s take ad creation as an example. Anybody who does any advertising knows that in a world of sophisticated a b testing, you want to have lots of different variations of your ad and be testing those.

18:11
Kevin Knight
The production of all of those different variations, subtle changes in the color of the call to action button, or different call to actions, or a different shade of ad or things like that. That’s not really making the best use of any marketer or designer’s time. That time would better spent thinking about who the person is you’re trying to reach and engage and what other messages might be more interesting for them. And so, yeah, I think that if you were to hold a marketers workload consistent and fast forward by even a year or two, you would find that many of the tasks that marketers do today will be replaced very shortly by technology. However, if marketers think about this as a how can I harness this technology to get me to free up more time for the stuff that only humans can do?

19:03
Kevin Knight
I think ultimately they will have more fun and be more effective.

19:07
Ellie
Very valid point. A topic that’s covered across all industries at the moment. Now, you mentioned Vita health briefly, so let’s talk about that. And for our listeners who might not be familiar, could you give us an overview of your organization and its mission in healthcare?

19:25
Kevin Knight
Yeah, you bet. So if you look at, if you ask anybody, most people will say the american healthcare system is pretty darn broken, but it’s broken in so many different ways that it can be hard to kind of see why. So if you look at things like causes of death, cardiometabolic disease, which is basically the effect on our bodies of obesity and prediabetes, or insulin resistance and diabetes, and high blood pressure and high cholesterol, all of that kind of stuff is not only one of the leading causes of death in America, but it makes every other leading cause of death worse. Cancer outcomes are much worse for people with cardiometabolic disease. Heart disease is obviously affected by cardiometabolic disease. Hence the cardio Covid incidence of death with COVID were much higher in people who had cardio metabolic disease.

20:15
Kevin Knight
If you want to really help people, it’s a natural place to start. And as you start to unpack it, you find that one of the limitations of our healthcare system is that doctors tend to only have literally a handful of minutes to spend with each patient, and that’s not enough to effectuate the kind of behavior change that most people need in order to change their lifestyle and get healthier. And so what beta health does is brings to their healthcare providers, registered dietitians and the like to help people to change their behavior. And if you talk to people every week for a few months, you can really start to change their habits in a way that traditional medicine has not been able to.

20:56
Kevin Knight
So today, beta continues to be very focused, as we have been for the last ten years, on cardiometabolic, but very specifically on obesity and diabetes. And we do it mainly through virtual care. And in addition to that one one coaching we also have doctors and offer prescription medications, which are very helpful for a lot of people on these conditions.

21:16
Ellie
And it’s such a hot topic at the moment, particularly around the drugs that help improve obesity and diabetes. Is that something that you see, particularly with some of the current drugs that are in short supply? Do you think that’s going to continue be of high importance for this particular industry? And do you think people are going to be more open to utilizing those types of drugs?

21:45
Kevin Knight
Oh, absolutely. And the reason these drugs are in short supply is because so many people want to use them who really don’t need them. They would probably benefit from other things. So we have just onboarded a lot of people in the month of January into what we call obesity step therapy, where we basically take them and we say, okay, well, if the goal here is to achieve weight loss, and I’m not talking, does Kevin fit into his favorite bikini? Weight loss. I’m talking to, is Kevin healthy? Weight loss. I’m talking, does Kevin have too high blood sugar or dangerously high blood pressure, those types of things that can lead to hospitalization and really affect your lifestyle, your quality of life?

22:28
Kevin Knight
If that’s the goal, and it’s not a cosmetic thing that we’re looking for, then the reality is most people don’t need those GLP one medications, even though many people do. And they are an absolute, wonder for those who do they. They work when nothing else seems to. But what I find and what we see in the data is that a lot of people who think that they have tried to lose weight without medications have really just been on a rollercoaster of ups and downs, as they follow along with a never ending array of bad diets. And that’s very different from having someone who understands nutrition, like a registered dietitian, who can help you understand what’s going on your body and help you make those changes.

23:07
Kevin Knight
So I’ve just been amazed as a, you know, we talk about consumers as a regular consumer who also happens to be an employee of a company like this. The amount that I’ve learned and the way that I’ve been able to incorporate into my life has been amazing. So, yeah, I do think the drugs are here to stay. I think that’s good news. And I think that the more attention we pay as a society to obesity as a chronic disease and not as a cosmetic condition or some sort of cosmetic flaw, then the more we can help people get healthy. And I do want to point out here, very important, when I say healthy, I’m not talking about a body mass index, necessarily. I’m not talking about a certain look or a certain shape.

23:46
Kevin Knight
I’m talking about clinical biomarkers like blood pressure and insulin resistance and things like that. And I think it is very likely that we will see great success with these drugs and other anti obesity measures that, well still end up with a celebration of people who come in all shapes and sizes and are just, on the whole, much healthier.

24:06
Ellie
Yeah, very true. And I want touch a little bit on the point you mentioned on the insights that you’ve seen in the data, because that’s all that we do all day long. But how does Vita health and your team leverage data and insights to create your marketing strategies and to better engage with your audience?

24:27
Kevin Knight
Well, ultimately, I like that you asked us what our mission was. I think that the reason why all of us employees are at Vita Health is because of the mission. We want to do our part to help people get healthier and happier and leave a positive impact on the world. So, for us, it all comes down as a marketer. It’s nice because all of my incentives are aligned with people getting healthier. In order for them to get healthier, they need to stick with their program, whatever that personalized program might look like after they begin consultations with their healthcare provider on the be that app. But, of course, as with any app, a lot of people will stop using it. That’s churn, and Churn is a reality of any app based business.

25:08
Kevin Knight
One way that we are looking at data right now, which I’m finding very energizing and fulfilling and interesting, is to look at what are the reasons why people churned to? Because at the most simplistic level, we can look at that and say, well, you’ve got active users and churned users, and the churned users need to be reminded to come back. Yeah, a lot of them probably do just need a reminder to come back. Others have churned because maybe their healthcare provider retired or left Vida to start their own practice. Maybe they went on a long vacation, and they just sort of fell out of the habit of using the Vida app, and it’s out of sight, out of mind.

25:46
Kevin Knight
Maybe they got a new phone and they couldn’t figure out how to transfer all of their old apps onto it, so they started with a clean slate, and they didn’t think to download the Vita app, and it’s just, they haven’t thought of it in a while, and all of a sudden, it’s six months, and, oh, well, I feel pretty good. Let’s not worry about it anymore. And this is where I think there’s this perfect intersection of data and the insights that make great marketers. You’ve got to first look at the data for signal that tells you, oh, there’s a group of people who look very similar. Their patterns that we see emerging in the behavior are quite similar.

26:19
Kevin Knight
And now you’ve got to put on your marketer’s hat and try and figure out what’s going on in their lives, develop Personas, figure out what makes them tick and how you can. I don’t want to use the word exploit because it sounds negative, but basically figure out how to use what makes them tick to motivate them to come back and get healthier, which ultimately is the outcome that everybody wants.

26:39
Ellie
Very interesting. That whole behavior change is incredibly, just fascinating to think about and talk about as well, especially going through the different pandemic that we’ve been through and everything that’s happening geopolitically. Getting people to stay consistent with their health proactively must be such a huge challenge for organizations such as yours and see healthcare as a journey rather than a reactive thing. And I think part of that is also something that we’ve talked about in the past with different guests in terms of the healthcare provider’s role and how open they are to be more sort of proactive about people’s health rather than reactive. So the healthcare providers that you have on your program, how do you go about onboarding them and making them truly engaged with this mission of truly accepting this more proactive approach to healthcare?

27:46
Kevin Knight
It’s a great question, and I think the answer to it has an enormous amount of commonality with marketing. So Vida hires. The most common credential that we hire for is a registered dietitian. And registered dietitians will have a certain baseline of expertise around nutrition, of course, but one incremental training that we run everybody through, which is an important part of our unique approach to this, is motivational. Interviewing if you look at any of these chronic diseases that I’ve been mentioning, they have an enormous overlap with mental health conditions like depression and anxiety. It remains to be figured out the extent to which the chicken came first or the egg came first. But the reality is that a lot of people, and in some populations, a majority of people who have diabetes also have depression.

28:43
Kevin Knight
A lot of people who have depression anxiety also have obesity. A lot of people who have obesity also have anxiety. And it’s this sort of complicated web of mind and body. When we hire registered dietitians, we put them through incremental training to help them learn how to do motivational interviewing, which is a best practice that comes from really the practice of therapy to understand what really motivates somebody. And what you’ll find is some people, let’s just take a handful of people that all want to lose weight. Some of those, let’s just say we’ve got three people. One of those people might want to lose weight because they have their 30th high school reunion coming up and they don’t feel, you know, like themselves and they want to, you know, maybe for them it is a little bit more appearance based.

29:32
Kevin Knight
That is a reality of the world that we live in, and it is certainly going to be a motivator for some people. Another person might have recently had their annual exam and their doctor says you’re pre diabetic and unless you lose five to 7% of your body weight, you’re going to advance to diabetes. And diabetes comes with all kinds of scary health complications that we’d like to avoid if we can help it. And that person sort of gets a wake up call and somebody else, maybe they just find that they’re not able to live the lifestyle that they want anymore. They want to be out. Maybe their kids are getting a little bit older and they want to be out hiking with their kids and doing the FuN outdoor activities or playing sports basketball in the front yard with their kids.

30:10
Kevin Knight
And they’re not able to do it because they’re not in shape to be able to do it. You have to be able to figure out what motivates those people to put together a health plan, a program that will be sustainable for them. If you put everyone into a one size fits all, most people are not going to be able to stick with it. And of course, that’s the magic that underlies the best marketing campaigns. There’s marketing campaigns that sound like they’re just yelling their value proposition over and over. Then there’s marketing campaigns where you see them and you’re like, my goodness, they have absolutely nailed the unique selling proposition to that consumer and its harder to do, but if you can do it, the results are much better in both healthcare and marketing.

30:50
Ellie
Thats an interesting point. And then it leads me to my other question regarding balancing that personalization and addressing health data privacy concerns. How do you handle that, particularly in your role in marketing healthcare services?

31:07
Kevin Knight
Yeah, you know, it’s really important. It’s a highly regulated industry and with good reason. Right. Health data is sensitive data and a lot of people are very private about there’s the common people don’t like to talk about their age. People certainly don’t like to talk about their weight. And a lot of people don’t want to talk about the fact they may have prediabetes or high blood pressure or things like that. And even if they don’t mind talking about it, they have a right to privacy with it, and we have to honor that. And so the way that I have to do this, and it’s a very interesting balance, is I want to be as sophisticated as I can in finding the right people for whom this value proposition will resonate.

31:50
Kevin Knight
But then when I approach them with, for example, an advertisement or a piece of direct mail or something like that, I have to be mindful of the possibility of, and I hold myself to an even higher bar than the regulations. I hold myself to a bar of I just don’t want anybody to think that I know too much about them. I want to figure out what motivates them, but I don’t want to ever come across as being creepy. And that is a potential for everything we do in digital advertising. We’ve sort of gotten used to the fact that if we click on a pair of shoes on eBay, that same pair of shoes might follow us around the Internet for weeks to come.

32:34
Kevin Knight
But when that first started happening, it definitely had a creep factor and spawned a whole bunch of episodes of things like Black Mirror. And so I think that it’s a blessing to work in healthcare and recognize that privacy is important, and just because you can doesn’t mean you should. And ultimately, I think we have to remember that there’s humans on the other side of every marketing and sales equation, and we don’t want to do anything that’s going to make anybody feel uncomfortable, even if maybe there’s going to be some short term performance gains, I think it’s always going to come back around and hurt you, right?

33:07
Ellie
Absolutely. I want to talk a little bit about differences in terms of marketing towards various generations. There’s a lot of talk about Gen Z versus millennials, etcetera. You’ve talked about the differences, or rather similarities, of b two b and b two C marketing. What’s your thoughts on marketing across generations?

33:30
Kevin Knight
Well, that is a big part of what I get to do at Vida. We have clients. So the way it works is organizations like health insurance companies, health plans, or employers will pay for Vida on behalf of their employees or plan members. With rare exception, people don’t pay for Vida on their own. It’s paid for by somebody else who benefits from them being healthier because the way the american healthcare system works. And so I find myself every day looking at a starting point of people who are eligible to sign up for Vida and don’t have to pay for it themselves. And those people range from people in their early twenties, even 18, all the way up to people in their late seventies, maybe eighties.

34:22
Kevin Knight
And I tell you, one of the things that I have learned, and this gets back to that idea of, you’ve really got to understand the consumer and what makes them tick, younger generations are far more likely to take a stronger interest in their own health. Obviously, I’m generalizing here where others are maybe a little bit more content to see themselves as consumers of healthcare. And ultimately, maybe it’s the doctor’s job to help them get better and figure out what medication will work and things like that. That is a shift that I’m seeing a very big difference between, if we just draw a line right down the middle at, call it age 45 or 50, those younger tend to be very willing to try new things to improve their health.

35:08
Kevin Knight
And I think a lot of this is because there’s a lot more, you know, here we are on a podcast. There’s a lot more podcasts about health these days. There wasn’t like health radio back when I was growing up. My mom didn’t drive around listening to health radio. She listened to news. But now people listen to health radio in the form of dozens and dozens of highly acclaimed podcasts. So I think people care a lot more about it and are willing to take a lot more active role in their own health, which is good for them and good for marketers.

35:36
Ellie
And do you use different, I’m assuming you would use different approaches for each of those segments and Personas based on their preferences. But do you also use different channels to target them?

35:51
Kevin Knight
You know, I use most of the same channels for everybody, but where I try to bring out the difference, though, of course different channels will perform better. But I’m going to, a lot of people will often say, like, oh, well, I don’t think many people say this these days, but certainly for a long time it was, well, do Internet ads work for older people? Of course they do. We all see the older people who we love alive and well on Facebook every day, though of course, they’re less prominent on platforms like TikTok. But ultimately, what I find is most important is that the message that hits people be a message that resonates with them. And for a message to resonate, it has to both sound right and look right, it has to say the right things.

36:44
Kevin Knight
So that might be a compelling testimonial or a statistic about, you know, improved health outcomes or, you know, something like that. Or it might just feature someone who looks more like them. I will share. I was recently looking at some data, too. I also see some breakdowns in gender, particularly among younger populations. Just as I said that younger populations tend to be a little bit more keen to invest in their health earlier on. Younger women tend to be a lot more engaged in this than younger Mendez. So I find that if I am to offer, for example, a free diabetes tends to affect people who are a little bit older. Why don’t we say weight loss solution?

37:34
Kevin Knight
If I offer a free weight loss solution to a population that reflects the makeup of the american adulthood, those who are older will convert at a higher rate, those who are younger and female at the second highest. And ultimately, the younger males are the ones who, I don’t know, maybe we still feel invisible and are less likely to. We need a little bit more humility in the way of lab results or something, but that’s the most reluctant population.

38:01
Ellie
Interesting. We always talk about who’s the most elusive consumer group for each of our guests, and I would never have guessed that particular audience for your organization. So that’s really interesting to hear.

38:16
Kevin Knight
Yeah, me neither. Give me more older folks.

38:21
Ellie
In terms of the future, or rather first, before we look ahead, is there any particular initiative or campaign that you’ve been part of that you’re very proud of and that you can talk us through?

38:34
Kevin Knight
Oh, I mean, I’ve been fortunate to be part of lots of really exciting ones, but maybe one that’s timely because we’re right around Super bowl time, is I had the opportunity when I was at Facebook. I worked in a group called the Facebook Creative Shop, which was like an in house creative agency. And I was working closely with the team at Frito Lay and the CMO at Frito Lay, and the leadership of the Doritos brand approached us and said, look, we’ve been doing crash the Super bowl for a long time. These are the ads that people might remember from a few years ago, dating back to many years ago, over a decade ago, where anybody could make an ad for Doritos, and then the winning ad would get to play live during the Super bowl.

39:22
Kevin Knight
And what the Doritos team said to us is, look, the Internet has changed a lot since we first started this campaign, and we would like to reimagine what this could look like in today’s Internet and what characterized today’s Internet in that day. This would have been, I don’t know, 2013 or so, is of course, that it was much more social and interactive. And so we designed a new app. Instead of just having these people who would create their own ads and sort of submit them, we created an app where people could come. And maybe you just had a good idea for a Super bowl ad, but you didn’t have any equipment or filming skills or acting skills. You could find other people who live near you who wanted to collaborate one. Maybe they had production skills but didn’t have any ideas.

40:13
Kevin Knight
And it was by far the most successful of these crash the Super bowl campaigns in terms of its reach and its benefit to the brand, its increase in sales, all of those types of things. And its a good reminder to me that we constantly have to be reevaluating even the stuff that is working the best in our marketing portfolio and ask ourselves, what is different about the world today than when we first incepted this idea? And is there anything we should do today to change the way we approach it to make it even better?

40:42
Ellie
That’s a very interesting point. I want to look ahead now, and I want to talk about emerging trends that you’re paying attention to, particularly in marketing overall, but especially in that intersection of health and technology. Is there anything you’re seeing in terms of mindset shifts or trends that you think will shape the future of health and technology?

41:09
Kevin Knight
Gosh, there’s so many. I’m going to avoid the cliche of talking about AI here, because that’s sort of an obvious, I think rather, there’s the infamous quote of, I know half my advertising is wasted, I just never know which half. And the reason for that, of course, is that targeting is very hard. So in the early days, we used demographics as a proxy for psychographics, because we didn’t have psychographics. So, for example, if you wanted to run ads for laundry detergent in the 1960s, you would run them on daytime television, obviously, hence the name soap operas, because that’s when a lot of moms were watching television and moms at that time were making the vast majority of purchase decisions as it relates to laundry detergent.

42:00
Kevin Knight
Of course, it would better if you could find a way to just find people who are shopping for laundry detergent. And over time, we’ve gotten better at that. Cookies kind of enabled that and as privacy. And this is what I say about sort of, this is why we can’t have nice things if we use the technology at our disposal in ways that creep people out, we’re going to find that stuff is taken away from us, it’s regulated away, or ultimately the platform start changing the way that we’re able to deploy that technology in a way that protects a consumer sense of security and safety and privacy. I think the most interesting thing for me, though, it’s far from the sexiest thing in the future. The near future of marketing, is how is the way we target people going to evolve?

42:49
Kevin Knight
We first saw this manifest in the changes to iOS 14. We now see it manifesting in efforts to do away with cookies. We see it with GDPR. The regulatory environment, I think, is going to continue to evolve. And ultimately, I think it just comes back to the craft of marketing. If we get really, really good at understanding what our consumer wants, and we can spread that message in a compelling way that evokes emotion and that stands out from all of the noise, then it’s always going to be the x factor that differentiates an okay campaign from a great campaign from a performance perspective.

43:34
Ellie
Right. And that was actually going to be my last question in regards to do’s and don’ts or advice that you would give to brands that are looking to connect better with their audiences, whether it’s b two B or B two C. But you’ve touched upon that already. If there’s any other tips that you could think of.

43:55
Kevin Knight
Well, I think it’s just remembering in this day and age, and obviously a central theme of this discussion has been data. We have to remember that in every spreadsheet cell, there are people represented in those numbers. And in no field is that as important, arguably, than marketing, where if we lose sight of the people there and start to just pull these levers in sort of anonymous technology for the sake of technology driven ways and do wrong by the consumer, that it comes back to haunt us.

44:29
Kevin Knight
If we do right by the consumer all the way from developing the right products that are based on the right insights and getting them in front of the right people at the right time in a way that makes people feel happy about them and excited and engaged and interested and entertained in some cases, then that’s how it’s going to work. And it’s as true today as it’s ever been in marketing. Without connection, marketing is doomed to fail.

44:53
Ellie
Love that perfect ending to our session. Thank you so much, Kevin, for taking the time to join us today. That was very interesting to hear your thoughts on marketing generally and more about Vita health. Thank you so much.

45:06
Kevin Knight
Thank you, Ellie.

The post Ep. 13 – The Emotion of Marketing with Kevin Knight. appeared first on Kadence.

Transcript

 Intro (00:05):

Welcome to The Elusive Consumer. Today Ellie is speaking with Sandeep Dayal, Managing Director and Executive Vice President at Cerenti Marketing Group. Join us as Sandeep shares in valuable insights into the evolving landscape of brand management, how startups can navigate their brand strategy and the surprising findings he uncovered during research for his book, Branding Between the Ears. Let’s get started right now on The Elusive Consumer.

Ellie (00:33):

I want to kickstart this straight away. I know you’re a busy man, so thank you again for joining us today and welcome to The Elusive Consumer. We’re really excited to have you and to learn more about cognitive science’s role in marketing strategy. we’re going to talk a little bit about the book that you’ve launched and the future of marketing and what that might look like versus the old school way of branding and branding strategy. So without further ado, maybe you could start with talking us through what got you to where you are today in terms of your professional career?

Sandeep Dayal (01:14):

Certainly. So thank you for asking that. Marketing is one of those things which you just have to have a passion for. I mean, especially when you’re talking about consumer marketing, it’s something that you must want to do. It is my thing. And I think in my career, there were many occasions as I was doing work in marketing and branding particularly, that you would be talking to consumers and just getting those insights and just really understanding people can be fascinating.

(01:47):

And I’ve done actually a lot of my work, if you will, in the healthcare segment. So I was often talking to patients, so people that have serious diseases, and many times it was children that would have those diseases. And then talking to them and just really understanding what they were going through their lives and how what we were doing as marketers could really make a difference, help them and so on, was just so much more real than just reading about those types of things in the book. So over the last 20 years, my passion for marketing has only grown, I would say, if that is even possible, and that’s what’s led me to be a marketer, be a brand marketer, so to speak.

Ellie (02:35):

Okay. And what do you think differentiates your organization, Cerenti, from other companies that operate in this space?

Sandeep Dayal (02:45):

Yeah, so we are what I would call a boutique management consulting firm, and that sort of goes with our principle of really being passionate about our work. Because we’re not so focused on being big, we’re not so focused on being known, whichever way you want to define it. We’re just very focused on doing great work and having a good time working with our clients. And so our firm has been very distinctive in the work and the approach that it’s taken. So particularly in the area that my book is about, Branding Between the Ears, it’s very much about getting deep into the understanding of consumer psychology and getting deep into understanding consumer behavior, which sometimes goes in a very different direction than what we have learned in the past in our standard marketing MBA type courses.

Ellie (03:50):

Right. In terms of moving away from that old school, traditional marketing and branding, was there a particular incident that led you to think, actually, I need to research this and I need to write a book about this? Or was it just over the years of experience of working with different companies that led to that?

Sandeep Dayal (04:11):

Yeah, funny you should ask that. And there have been at least one or two incidents that really led me to rethink what the heck was going on in marketing. And one that comes to mind is that… So, just a little bit of background: there’s a lot of work we’ve done in the past in the area of treating patients that have rheumatoid arthritis. Rheumatoid arthritis is arthritis, except you’ve got all this pain and stiffness in your body, and it’s a situation where your immune system is wired wrongly, and it attacks your own body, its joints, and that’s what creates that disease. And it’s a life lifelong disease and people that have it go through this painful disease for their entire lives.

(05:01):

So I remember one incident when I was talking to this woman, Lisa, and we were having this in-depth conversation and I was very excited about having this conversation because I was talking about my client’s new drug, which at the time was revolutionary and it really helped patients, it really worked well. So the drug was called Humira by a company called Abbott at the time now called AbbVie. It’s the biggest drug in the world, it’s like $25 billion in revenues. And so I was talking to Lisa and I was just asking her what she goes through and this and that, and I was telling her how wonderful this drug was and that it would really change her life. And I just felt like she was just not connecting, which was kind of very weird to me, which is like, hey, I’m a marketer, okay. But I’m telling you how my product can be so super beneficial for you, it’ll change your life and you’re not that interested in listening to me.

(05:59):

And then she turned around to me and said, “Listen, Sandeep, if you don’t understand what I go through in my life, how are you going to help me?” And I was so confused when she said that because I said, “Look, I have this fantastic drug, it’s going to change your life. What do you care whether I understand your life or not?” But it really sort of drove home the message that you’re dealing with humans here, you’re dealing with people here. And people have to have a certain level of connection with you before they can have some level of empathy, some level of connection that you have to have before they will even trust a word of what you’re saying.

(06:42):

So in that sense, it was a big realization for me that it’s not so simple. Because marketing says, well figure out how your product is different from somebody else’s product and take those differences and communicate them, that’s what a value proposition is, that’s what marketing is. But it’s not so simple. You can do that and have nothing happen, you can have a campaign that’s completely ineffective. And the difference is sometimes understanding those behavioral elements and psychological elements. So that was a big moment for me. It was such a small thing, but it was a big moment for me personally.

Ellie (07:17):

Right. And it’s interesting you mentioned that because it touches upon so much of what we discuss in this podcast in terms of being a data-driven organization and what role data plays in really listening to your consumers to be able to better connect with them. I’d like to hear more about how you go about emphasizing that importance to some of these Fortune 500 companies that you work with. What is your core challenge when they approach you and say, “Hey Sandeep, we need your help here with our branding strategy?”

Sandeep Dayal (07:54):

Yeah, yeah. And by the way, it’s not easy. So, really getting some of these ideas and communicating some of these ideas is a challenge. And it’s a challenge because people have historically been trained in a very different way. When people 20 years back or 15 years back, or even now in many cases, when they go through their branding courses and so forth and brand training, they’re not taught a lot about behavioral science and cognitive psychology, for example. So it is a very different framework and people get like, “Ah, what is this? I’ve never heard of this. Is this right? And how does it relate to what I know?” And people tend to be comfortable in their own shoes and what they know. So it’s not an easy thing and it’s better for marketers to realize that it’s not an easy thing.

(08:50):

But at the same time, Ellie, what has happened is that there is so much science behind this stuff now. So this is not stuff we are making up. The only thing that we have done, which is different in my company, is that we have taken all the advances that have taken place in, for example, behavioral science or behavioral economics. I mean, there are people like Taylor Kahneman Schiller who won Nobel Prizes for this thing. So this is very solid stuff. However, it’s science that has been applied to public policy, it’s science that’s been applied to things like investments and finance and so forth, but it’s science that has not been applied to marketing as much. But it is science nonetheless. So there’s very compelling data and there’s very compelling proof of effectiveness, if you will, behind this thinking, which is what has made us so confident in applying this with our clients who are really betting hundreds of millions of dollars on the success of their brands. So it’s very high impact, very big. And the innovation really is coming from the application of hard science now to the area of branding.

Ellie (10:14):

Could you give us some examples of clients you’ve helped with your brand positioning, maybe in the financial or healthcare sector?

Sandeep Dayal (10:25):

Yeah, I mean, we worked in many different sectors, healthcare sector, financial services sector, and consumer products. The one example that I would pick if you want to talk about financial services is, again, a lot of financial services are very consumer-oriented, and you have to realize that it’s not just a game of numbers. So we worked a lot with, for example, credit card companies, which is about as much of a consumer product as anything else. You’ve seen wonderful brand strategies and campaigns around American Express, around MasterCard and so on. And you have to realize that people are people, and they think of these things, even though you would think they would be very numbers-oriented. So if you have a credit card, you would think that people would just look at, hey, what’s the interest rate? What are the benefits? And you can pretty much do a pros and cons of different cards and they select that way.

(11:37):

But people manage their finances in many different ways. For example, people may sometimes have a particular card for just certain types of expenses and another card for another type of expenses just to do the accounting. An economist would say that makes no sense, you can sort through the thing. And you don’t need to have so many different cards. But we realize, for example, that people do, in fact, have that kind of behavior. And therefore if you’re sitting there as a credit card marketer and you are thinking about what are the different types of cards you’re going to have and which ones are actually going to get into a customer’s wallet? That’s the number one question. There are so many cards, many of them never make it to the wallet. So how can you make your card very useful for that person?

(12:26):

So that’s one of the things that we did. We would sort of position certain cards for being certain types of expenses, use this card for your school expenses and so on or whatever, or use this card for your wedding celebration or something and come up with some programs. And so those are the times when people are spending a lot of money and you want to be able to capture those events, and by creating certain types of products and brand positioning for those products tied to those behaviors, you can have a lot of success. So financial services is a very common area where these types of marketing is used.

(13:06):

The other one that I mentioned, of course, which I’m sure all of your listeners are familiar with is the MasterCard priceless campaign. Now, what was wonderful about that campaign and the strength of the brand strategy was that it ran for many, many decades, and is still in many ways an inspiration for their current campaigns also. That shows you the strength of a campaign. It’s not the brand positioning, oh, today we have this campaign and tomorrow or next year we have another campaign. It’s this priceless campaign ran for decades and worked really well. And it was really tied to this whole idea that rather than let the credit card be something that you think of as, hey, this is just a different way of spending cash, to really make you think that by using that particular card, you were creating special moments in people’s lives. It wasn’t so much that you were spending money, but that the result of your spending money was creating these special moments.

(14:09):

So for their first campaign featured a dad who goes out to with his son for the very first time to a baseball game. And then they show the things that you’re very familiar with that, oh, tickets, $15, hot dog, whatever, $3 and souvenir t-shirt, whatever, $25 and so on. So they go through this list of things, but then saying that first moment with your son at the baseball game, priceless. Something like that. So it really takes away from the idea that, oh, you spent whatever it is, $7 or $8 on an outrageously priced hotdog to say, hey, no, that’s not the point. The point is having this priceless moment with your son and MasterCard makes it possible every time you use it.

(15:02):

So that relies on a very special kind of psychology, which has been shown to be what is called intrinsic motivation, which means that when people do things because they’re motivated to those things, not because somebody’s forcing them or bribing them to do those things, like extrinsic motivation is essentially bribes or forcing somebody to do something. Intrinsic is when you want to do something all by yourself. And one of the principles of intrinsic that has been discovered, which is by Deci and Ryan, two very famous psychologists who have said something called the self-determination theory at the University of Rochester, but it says, one of the ways in which you create intrinsic motivation is by enhancing your relationships When you do anything, if you use any brand or anything, and if that’s going to help expand your social relationship, that’s going to have intrinsic motivation behind it.

(16:02):

So this priceless campaign was about enhancing your relationships with your friends, with your family, with whoever. And in that sense it is intrinsically motivating. So there’s a lot of science now that says that works, so we shouldn’t be surprised that the priceless campaign works so well because it really relied on this whole arena of self-determination theory.

Ellie (16:26):

Right. And that leads me to questions that I have about your book. You talk about the five types of brands in your book, and I’d love to hear some examples of those. But in the MasterCard example, is that one more related to a values type or empathy or what do you think there?

Sandeep Dayal (16:48):

So that’s a brand which is about, what I call brand with resolve.

Ellie (16:54):

Resolve.

Sandeep Dayal (16:55):

And I relate to the whole idea of intrinsic motivation.

Ellie (16:57):

Okay. Talk to us about those five types.

Sandeep Dayal (17:00):

These are kind of five very, in some ways new or different. So just going back to the theory of branding, just so that we can compare it, theory of branding has really been a theory about product differentiation. So if tomorrow, Ellie, you launch a company and you come out with a product, you’re basically going to say, “Hey, how’s my product different from somebody else’s product?” And then you will take those differences and turn them into some kind of a brand campaign or a brand message and so on and say, “Hey, this is what my brand is about.” So that’s about product differentiation.

(17:35):

And then marketers discovered emotions. Maybe that was 30 years back or something, and they said, “Hey, it’s not just that my car is faster or more luxurious or more powerful or something, but yeah, let’s put some emotion on it. Yeah, it’s powerful so it’s going to be more exhilarating.” So that type. “Well, I’ve got softer leather, so it’s going to be more luxurious and you’re going to be in love.” That type of… So they started attaching those emotions, and nothing wrong with it that actually works to a certain degree.

(18:07):

At the same time, the brain doesn’t quite work like that. The brain doesn’t say, hey, if you just put a emotion on any kind of functional difference, then that creates a great brand. No, the brain really works in a way different way on around certain thoughts and so forth, around connections, around thoughts. And so the different types of brands in my book that I describe, and we’ve already talked about a couple of them, one is brands with empathy. Then there’s another one which is brands with values. Then brands with wisdom, brands with reasoning and brands with Resolve. So there are these five different kinds of brands which are very different and much more powerful, if you will, than just the concepts of product differentiation.

Ellie (18:54):

And in terms of examples of some of those, and I believe you also sometimes talk about a sixth brand with purpose. Can you talk about that one a little bit and examples of brands today that are trying to differentiate themselves by that purpose?

Sandeep Dayal (19:10):

Yeah, so that’s an interesting area because everybody these days has been discussing about, oh my gosh, we need to have some purpose. And when that happens, they start associating themselves with some charity. So buy my product and I’ll give a dollar to this charity and so on. And it’s kind of very, what I would call a very knee-jerk reaction to making their brands, brands with purpose. And that is not how is some of that authenticity around your commitment to purpose. There are clearly brands like Patagonia and so on, which have had very distinct purpose and they’ve lived it in many ways, and therefore you can see how they’re brands with purpose.

(19:55):

But the example that I describe in my book is, and there are a number of examples, one of the examples that I describe is Allbirds, which is a company that makes shoes, as you might know, very comfortable and fantastic shoes. But they started with this whole notion that they were going to have these shoes, which were going to be, if you will, environmentally friendly. They didn’t say that, “Okay, every time you buy my shoe, I’ll give $1 to the environmental fund or something, for climate change.” They really invested a lot of time and money into making sure that every component of that shoe was, whether it’s the shoelaces that are coming from eucalyptus trees or the sole of the shoe, which is from another type of material, and so they just made sure that in every element of their product and element of what they were preaching, that they were actually doing what they were preaching.

(20:55):

And as a result of that, and the fact that their shoes are great, but they could have just had a message that said, “My shoes are great and very comfortable.” But no, it’s all about having that purpose of making the world a better place through using more environmentally friendly materials. And that is how their shoe just took off. Which is amazing because in the world there’s so many shoes, there’s so many shoe brands, how do you come up with a new shoe brand now and make it take share? It’s almost impossible, but they did it and they did a slam bang job of it.

(21:31):

So that’s what I would call a brand with purpose. It is tied to the idea that when you tie any kind of giving or what have you do something, A, it should be on related to what your brand’s core message is. So don’t say your brand is all about environmental materials and then you have a program to give a dollar to a children’s hunger program. Well, what’s that got to do with this? I mean, it’s a worthy cause, but it’s got nothing to do with your brand. So you got to align you with your brand positioning. And then the second thing is you have to have that level of authenticity where people know through your actions that you are really doing it.

(22:14):

And then the third thing I say for brands with purpose, if you’re going to do it well, that do something that you can do… so where the purpose or concern, engage in a purpose that you can do better than anybody else. Or by virtue of your skills. So because you have the skill, you have the knowledge of producing materials that can be used and shoes in an environmentally way, yeah, do that because that’s very much fitting with your purpose and very much fitting with your capabilities. So that’s what brands with purpose are, and we are seeing more and more that the brands that do it well are earning loyalty and premiums over similar products that don’t do that.

Ellie (23:00):

In terms of companies that are just starting up and don’t necessarily have the reputation and heritage of these big corporations, when they’re trying to decide their strategy for their brand and what type of brand they want to be, what advice would you give them?

Sandeep Dayal (23:20):

Right. And by the way, Allbirds was one such startup. They came absolutely out of nowhere and took share away from companies like Nike and these way bigger companies. So firstly, I do want to inject a bit of an air of reality, which is that marketing is expensive. So obviously when you’re a startup company, you want to know if there’s some kind of a hack or some kind of a shortcut that allows you to spend zero but have a multi-billion dollar brand. Yes, of course, but I don’t blame anybody for having that desire, but it is difficult to do that.

(24:03):

Nonetheless, I would say there are brands that have been startup brands that have managed to do that. Allbirds is not the only story there. In my book, I also described, for example, the experience of the Dollar Shave Club, and they did it through building what I would call the brand with empathy. And what they realized was that men were particularly tired of being taken advantage of by the bigger razor blade companies like Gillette and so on, who would give you the razor for free, but then the razor blade itself was outrageously expensive considering what it was. And so they came up with this very simple thing that we’re going to mail you a blade every month for a dollar and this and that, and it’s going to be just a gray and you’ll get a great shave and all that stuff.

(25:02):

But the entrepreneur who came up with that, his main success was he put up this video in which he did such a great job of articulating and made this video, and he kind of did it spontaneously. He just had a friend come over and said, “Hey, take my video.” And he goes through this whole thing and say, this rant, really, it’s almost a three-minute rant where he talks about how men are being taken advantage of and how it’s simply really all you need is this good shave and there you should be able to do it for a dollar and so on. And then he puts it up on YouTube and it goes viral. I mean, there’s like 30 million people that have watched this video. That is because he was, either instinctively or by virtue of having talked to other people, he was able to connect with people into that angst that people feel, right? And that’s what a brand with empathy does well, that it is able to really step into your shoes and see the world through your eyes.

(26:09):

That’s what empathy is, when you can go into somebody else’s shoes and see how they see the world. And this is something that he uncovered. And maybe instinctively, but he made this video and then people who watched that, they thought it was just such a great video, it captured how they were feeling and they would forward it to the next person and so on and how marketing goes.

(26:31):

So I think what I would advise people starting their business is that, look, there is no replacement, even though we are in an era of data science and machine learning and all of that stuff, which certainly would be elusive for most entrepreneur, but there is really no substitute for one human talking to another. So really go talk to your consumers, try to understand what is the deep angst that you can focus on. Because you can, then you will have some natural avenues for connecting with people and so on. So that’s just one way. But I would say the five different ways or the six different types of brands that I describe in my book are all avenues for ideas around how you can do this differently than what has been done in the past and that can be a hope for doing it more efficiently and break some of the rules.

Ellie (27:22):

Before we move on from your book, could you give us any examples of some findings that surprised you during your research stage?

Sandeep Dayal (27:32):

In some ways, the best findings are the findings that actually surprise you. So we worked a lot with Abbott on a brand called PediaSure, which is basically like a milkshake type of a drink, which can be given to children in the age groups of one to 10. And if they drink this thing, they get all the vitamins and minerals and all the nutrition that they need. This particular product had been sold by this company forever in hospitals, and it was used for kids that were really sick who could not swallow. So this was something that was just fed through a tube. And even if those kids couldn’t eat anything else, just by having this milkshake drink, they could get all the nutrition that they needed to survive. And then Abbott sort of started saying, “Hey, wait a minute, “And we worked with them on this. They said, “Well, this is such a great nutritional drink, maybe all the consumers would want it, all children could benefit from it.”

(28:37):

And now this is by the way, it went from being a few hundred million dollars in hospitals to now being a big brand, which is in excess of $5 billion I think at this point, or maybe $3 billion or $5 billion, but some huge number around the world. The real insight that came, and we were kind of in Indonesia and looking at, look, what’s going on, what would motivate moms and kids? And we did some focus groups and in those focus groups, the key insight that came out was, and this also came through the doctors that had been prescribing this product, that came was that most moms think that their kids are picky eaters, which was very interesting. It’s like especially young moms that are first time moms and so on, they have kids and so on, and they see kids and they’re eating all kinds of junk food. They’ll eat french fries, they’ll eat chocolates, they’ll eat candies and this, but they won’t eat broccoli. I mean, we see that all the time.

(29:35):

But it’s not a US problem all over the world. We talk to moms in Mexico, we talk to moms in Vietnam and Indonesia, Malaysia, and every time this one little thread would emerge, which was that my kid’s a picky eater. And that gave us the line that made all the difference to this product for which was that for kids that are picky eaters, PediaSure is the product that gives you balanced and complete nutrition. And there were lots of ad campaigns and so on that were done around those things. But that really connected with people and it was such an interesting thing that emerged. It was, again, one of those examples of having that empathetic connection because moms would feel guilty about this. If your kid’s not eating well, if you’re a mom, you feel like maybe I’m a terrible cook, which many young moms was possibly the case, and they would feel that or they would feel like I’m just not being a good mother to my child.

(30:37):

So it was tied into all of that angst around being a good mom, being a good cook, and so on. And when we said, “No, no, no, this picky eater thing is a condition.” In our campaigns, we sort of implied the look, you’re not at fault. This is a condition. It just happens to all the kids, like 90% of them, and there’s a way to deal with it. So that kind of insight is tough, that when it emerges, it’s just very satisfying, as a marketer, it’s just so satisfying to see that. And it is the ultimate thing that led that brand to go from wherever it was, $200 million to over $3 billion and sold within 70 plus countries with essentially that same idea. So that’s one example, but there are many.

Ellie (31:28):

That actually leads me to a question about global brands and how to build a global brand. What advice or what sort of key points would you say to a brand that’s currently in variety of different markets or are looking to enter new markets in terms of building the brands?

Sandeep Dayal (31:48):

Yeah. So I think the mistake that I think brands often make is that they feel like every country that they go into needs a whole different strategy. And if you go talk to people in those countries, they’ll tell you exactly the same, “Oh, my country is completely different. Yeah, that’s fantastic that you did all that in the United States. Oh, now you’re in Malaysia. This is a completely different thing.” What in fact we find is that the things that are common are actually common, are widespread and endemic because consumers, just like I highlighted in this example, moms are moms and they feel very similarly about their children, their relationship with their children. The MasterCard priceless campaign, that was a global campaign. Again, because that whole idea of enhancing your relationships through building these special moments for people is something that we all want to do.

(32:51):

So there are more commonalities than what one would think, but nonetheless, you do have to spend the time to understand what are those universal insights. In my book, I talk about brands with wisdom, and then the basic idea there is that there are certain kinds of universal wisdoms that people acquire through their experiences then have a very dominant effect on how they think, for example. So one example of a wisdom which is very common is associated around the loss aversion bias, which essentially says that be happy with what you have, which is people don’t like to lose what they have. And why do we have that wisdom in our mind? Because from the time that we grew up, we are taught, don’t be so greedy. Don’t they say something like a burdened hand is better than two in the bush? That’s kind of an example of a wisdom, many different examples like that.

(33:48):

But you can and use those types of things to then align your brand with that type of wisdom. Because if people have a certain rule in their mind, then you want to make sure that you’re not trying to contradict that rule because it takes a long time for people to have these experiences and form those rules. Another rule, which is common, which is called the Occam’s razor, is something that says, given any particular situation, the simpler answer is the better answer. Which is not always true by the way, but nonetheless, most people say, don’t overcomplicate things. The simpler answer is the better answer. And so for example, if you remember Staples did this whole campaign for their office products around the easy button, and essentially they said, “Hey, when you’re buying paperclips and hanging file folders, why do you want to complicate your life and do a spreadsheet and this and that? Just come to staples and we’ll make it easy.” So they say, life is complicated enough. Don’t wish there was an easy button for life? Well, there isn’t, but there’s an easy button for your office supplies. So that was kind of just make it simple, make choice simple. And it’s based on that Occam’s razor bias where people already believe that there is intrinsic value in keeping things simple or intrinsic wisdom in keeping things simple.

(35:06):

When you go globally, back to your question, you will find, and what psychologists have found that there’s a whole set of cognitive biases, and I call them cognitive wisdom, but they call them cognitive biases. So Occam’s razor, they will say is a cognitive bias. I say it’s cognitive wisdom. And what they’ve found is that these biases are universal. So in that sense, and they’ve identified, you can Google it, and you’ll identify that there are like 150 plus cognitive biases that have been researched and found to be endemic in the human population. So if you’re building a global brand, look at some of these things because these are pieces of wisdom, you can call them bias, but these are pieces of wisdom that people have universally. And if you align your brands to that, A, you’ll be following one of the strategies that I articulate in my book, which is brands with wisdom, but you will find that you are already building a platform for a global brand.

Ellie (36:12):

I want to move towards the future of brand management. For years in our industries, whether it’s marketing or market research, we’ve been advising our clients to leverage data to boost brand loyalty or to create more personalized campaigns. With the rise of AI and big data, what role will data play in brand management?

Sandeep Dayal (36:38):

So that’s the million dollar question, isn’t it? And one, certainly with things like ChatGPT, OpenAI and all this stuff coming in, I would hope that we humans are going to find a way to use that as yet another tool to take our own thinking to a different level. I mean, just because calculators came out didn’t mean that humans became irrelevant in such a way. Yeah, it became irrelevant to try and do math in your head maybe, but you found other things to do. So those types of things have happened.

(37:15):

Now, data, I mean, in the world today, you can’t really do marketing without being very proficient with data. I mean, certainly with big brands and so on, because there’s so much data. And my financial services clients where you can imagine those credit card companies I mentioned, they have data on every single thing you bought. Every time you swiped the card, they got that data. And then in addition to that, they can also buy other data and they do buy other data. So you’re sitting on these terabytes of data which are going to give you different insights and are already in use by most companies are using that. So if you are planning to be a marketer, that’s what you want, being analytically savvy, knowing what machine learning is about, that’s all very important.

(38:07):

At the same time, I would say there is no substitute for one human talking to another. So there are many instances in which you can go as deep as you want into the data and you won’t find certain insights. And sometimes those are tactical insights. For example, when we were working with some of these credit card companies, they did a campaign. And normally what you do is when you do campaigns in credit cards, you’ll just do that, you look at the campaign response and if the campaign didn’t meet all the parameters, you just change some of the parameters a little and try another segment and so on until you get a segment that is optimized. And you can do that and you never need to talk to anybody. But what we did a little differently was we did a campaign and then we actually took some of the people that responded to the campaign or didn’t respond to the campaign, and we called them into a focus group and said, let’s talk to them and see what happened.

(39:01):

And one of the things we found in this instance was that the ad agency had created this collateral, this mailing that would go out, which is kind of like this three-dimensional piece. So it’s sort of assembled into a three-dimensional, I mean, it was really a sexy piece and it looked really good and people could open it and they would notice it in the mail and then they could see the offer. So we were very excited about it. But what we found was that people said that when they opened this darn thing, it was really hard to open it and it would tear apart and it would look lousy after it was torn apart. So then they would lose interest in it. And if it was an interesting campaign, they wanted to be able to put it on the refrigerator and put it with a magnet. If this thing looked like something that had been attacked by an animal or something, then they were not going to put it up on their refrigerator because it’ll make the refrigerator look terrible.

(39:58):

So how are you going to discover that in data? How are you going to do that in data? You can analyze terabytes of data and you will never know that they didn’t like the look of it and they threw it away. Or your piece didn’t open that easily. So that is why you have to mix data science with human science. So that’s a very important point. And I think though the whole OpenAI thing and artificial intelligence is going to be a big challenge for marketers because unlike machine learning, it works in a very different way. And the way that it works very differently is that it replicates a human’s way of thinking. That is why it seems so scary and sometimes so outrageously real. So in that sense, I think ChatGPT and OpenAI, it’s going to fundamentally change how not just marketers work, but humans work. And humans will have to find new ways to keep raising the bar because some of the human thinking processes are going to get fundamentally replicated over the next 20 years.

Ellie (41:12):

And I want to touch upon that a little bit in terms of your thoughts on ethical considerations for using consumer data in branding purposes and how companies can navigate those challenges?

Sandeep Dayal (41:26):

So what is happening, particularly in the field that I work in, Ellie, which is applying this behavioral science and this cognitive psychology and so on, that we’re learning a lot about how the human brain works. And in that sense, marketers every day are going to know more and more about how your brain works, not just consciously, but also subconsciously. So imagine what that does, because if I can subconsciously influence you, and there’s nothing wrong, I mean, marketers do that all the time, by the way. You find that, for example, if you go to a Mexican restaurant and if you play Mexican music, people are going to think that Mexican food is more authentic. So you subconsciously influence them. But in that scenario you’re just creating and adding to the experience, that’s harmless.

(42:21):

There are other scenarios in which you can subconsciously use tactics against the interest of the consumer. And you see that often on the web. There have been lots of papers and particularly a paper written by the University of Chicago on what they call dark patterns. So this is where websites are using these less than ethical techniques, if you will, to make consumers act in what might be not their best interest. Like for example, a simple example might be when you are trying to opt out of something, they will shame you into it. “Oh, Ellie, are you sure you want to opt out of enhancing your own education or your own knowledge?” They’re trying to shame you into not, and they need to leave you alone.

(43:12):

So I think marketers have to be very conscious of not using my book to do things that they’re not supposed to. So in my book, I have a chapter on ethics where I give people three different ways to apply or test of whether if they’re in a moral dilemma and trying to figure out whether they should do something or not, then I give them three different rules. And one is what I call the canonical imperative, which is do unto others as you would they do unto you, which we all understand. The second one is something that comes from Immanuel Kant, who was a German philosopher, very famous one. And he basically said, don’t do anything that if everyone else also started doing that would be against societal good. And what that means is that sometimes you might say, you know what? The problem with the canonical principle is that you’re saying do unto others what you would do unto to unto you. But you might say, you know what? Sometimes I do tell lies, so I guess it’s okay for me to tell lies also because I do it also.

(44:33):

So what Immanuel Kant said is that, look, if everybody started telling lies, then would that be a good society? We wouldn’t be able to trust anybody on anything. So that’s why he said that’s the categorical principle that don’t do something that if everybody else also started doing would lead to a net deterioration of the society.

(44:54):

And then the last one is of course the sunshine imperative, which is don’t do anything, which if published in the front page of the New York Times is going to embarrass you. So if marketers follow these three principles, canonical, categorical, and sunshine, then they’re not going to make those ethical mistakes. And that is a very, very important point that you bring up, Ellie,

Ellie (45:19):

Right. You talk about ethical mistakes. Could you describe some other big mistakes that you’ve seen some companies make when it comes to marketing and strategy and how some of those mistakes could have been avoided?

Sandeep Dayal (45:32):

Yes. I mean, unfortunately marketers often make mistakes. Some of those mistakes are, I guess marketing mistakes. Some of those can have societal impact as when marketers unwittingly do certain things, maybe they’re not doing it deliberately, but they do certain things where they don’t realize the impact of their actions. So for example, Prada had put all these Pradamalia, which is just these collections of these chachkies that they put out there. But one of them happened to, if you remember, there was a big ruckus about this, that it happened to resemble blackface. Now they did many different Pradamalia, some of them looked like flying saucers and some of them looked like animals and this and that. But one of them, unfortunately, out of the five, 10 that they introduced, looked like blackface. And that had a very negative messaging for people, African Americans who saw that as a celebration of blackface. So Pradamalia didn’t intend that, but they did it anyways. And it was a mistake that they should have avoided.

(46:51):

And there are many examples like that. Balenciaga very recently ended up doing this campaign, which almost seemed to be celebrating child bondage, for example, and they had to pull that one. And these are very good marketers we are talking about, these are very celebrated marketers we are talking about. But sometimes when they forget that empathy piece that you and I talked about earlier where you have to put yourself in the shoes of another person and see the world through their lens. When you don’t do that well, when you don’t do that particular psychological piece well, you sometimes launch these… And these people that we’re talking about, these experienced marketers spent tens of millions of dollars before realizing that what they were doing was so offensive to certain people. So those are some extreme examples, but unfortunately there’s just so many of them. We could have a whole session of one mistake after another by very seasoned and talented marketers who wasted a lot of money. In fact, in one of my recent blogs, I touch on many of these mistakes.

Ellie (48:14):

Yes. And before we wrap up our session today, I actually want to return to that building that connection and empathy with the consumers. In a few words, what advice would you give to companies, whether startups or large corporations, to better understand and connect with their customers?

Sandeep Dayal (48:33):

So it goes back to some of the things that we talked about, which is number one, do the data science for sure, because that’s a requirement, but there is no substitute for one human talking to another. So that’s one piece of advice. Second piece of advice is don’t be arrogant. You’d think everything there is to know in branding just because you’ve been doing branding for the last 20 years, but it is entirely possible that what you know is substantially flawed and therefore go back and learn these new things. Whether these things like behavioral branding, behavioral science, cognitive science, so what I call cognitive brands or behavioral brands, these are things that are new and different and marketers need to accept that they don’t know everything before they can learn new things. So that’s the other second piece of advice that I would give marketers.

Ellie (49:38):

Brilliant. Sandeep, thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate it. And it’s been a pleasure.

Sandeep Dayal (49:45):

I enjoyed talking to you, Ellie. And I would just mention also in addition that for people that are interested, I have a website, SandeepDayal.com, where I publish more articles around exactly the kinds of topics and questions that you were asking. And of course, the book, Branding Between the Ears, if they’re interested in it, that’s available on Amazon and other online sites.

The post Ep. 12 – Marketing with Empathy with Sandeep Dayal. appeared first on Kadence.

Transcript

Intro
Welcome to the Elusive Consumer. Today, Ellie is speaking with Dr. Justin Barclay, Head of Insights & Analytics at Tivity Health. Join us as they discuss Dr. Barclay’s journey from academia to the healthcare industry, Tivity Health’s approach to gathering consumer insights and the impact of AI and personalization on healthcare products and services. Let’s get started on the Elusive Consumer.

Ellie:
Hello, Dr. Barclay, and welcome to the Elusive Consumer. We’re so happy to have you with us today.

Dr. Barclay:
Hi Ellie, thanks for having me.

Ellie:
I am very intrigued to talk about the topic of consumer insights in the healthcare sector and hear more about how Tivity health is using insights to improve your products and services. But I would like to start to talk about your professional journey a bit. If you could tell us a bit more about that.

Dr. Barclay:
Yeah, you bet. So it’s a little bit of a hackneyed story, I’ll admit. I started off as an academician right out of college and was teaching full-time in the classroom. Some management, some strategy stats, went into administering management degrees for a while there. But then, ultimately, the hackneyed part was took a detour over to consulting for a bit and did some management consulting, did some work with the DoD on their GI bill, and ultimately after making it through higher ed for a while, doing the management consulting for a while, working with the government for a bit, I was looking for somewhere else to have some impact.

Dr. Barclay:
And so I took what I knew from my time in the classroom and my time running those programs and used what I learned as a consultant to bring it into private industry and saying, what can we do with data and with insights in an organization where they’re looking to have just as much impact in the community as I am. And that’s really how I stumbled on Tivity health was making that move from faculty turned consultant turned insights exec. And that’s where I’m at today.

Ellie:
And why healthcare specifically? You talk about making an impact, but specifically healthcare, why did you choose that sector?

Dr. Barclay:
Yeah, yeah, healthcare. Healthcare needs a lot of love, right? It’s a system that helps millions each year, but it’s also a system that, in some ways, is fundamentally flawed and fundamentally broken. And I’m not gonna be the first one to characterize it as sick care, right? But in America, that’s still where we’re at. That’s still the state of play. And so it was, if I can take what I know around strategy, around stats, around analytics and primary research, and help a team craft wellness solutions that stop the process before it gets to sick care, that’s really been the tangible benefit for me is understanding how we can use all these things, not just to design a new widget, not just to improve a ux by 5%, or get ten more people to click on an email, all those things are perfectly reasonable goals.

Dr. Barclay:
But if we can advance healthcare before it becomes sick care, that’s a lot of why that charter, that mission for Tivity Health, drove me to be part of that organization and use everything that I’ve possibly learned in a lifetime of learning to bring to bear on the problem.

Ellie:
Right, you mentioned an interesting point there about healthcare, being sick care, particularly in America. Have you had any global experience of what healthcare might be like in Europe or other parts of the world that you could talk to us about?

Dr. Barclay:
Certainly wish I did. But what I would say is that just based on what we’ve done to understand what’s possible here, we certainly take some of those examples from what’s done elsewhere. And a lot of what we’re applying today in Tiviti’s solutions is a lot about how to move to the front of not just things like healthy aging, but also understanding the very expanded definition of wellness that it’s guaranteed to come up, and it probably will be for a couple more years. But Covid really led us to a new normal.

Dr. Barclay:
And that new normal meant that it wasn’t just basic definitions of health and fitness that were redefined, but the very definition of wellness to include things that weren’t included before, things like, just by way of a random example, we work primarily with older adults, and more than 50% of them that we talked to said that they even include things like socialization, mental enrichment, nutrition, meditation. More than 50% put meditation in their wellness definition. And so this new normal has health and well-being and longevity at such top of mind that didn’t start here. That’s sort of finally made it here through the lasting effects of the pandemic. And so then understanding how we can then lean into those redefinitions has really been where we’ve focused our attention for the bulk of the last number of years.

Ellie:
It’s interesting that Tivity Health is focusing on the older adults, and it’s one of those groups of people that are particularly elusive to reach and to gain a bit more information on. Tell us a little bit about how you, within your organization, try to involve them and make sure that their feedback and their voice is heard.

Dr. Barclay:
Yeah. Oh, and you could not be more right. Not only is it an elusive population, but we also have a number of dangerous stereotypes floating around in our lexicon and in our understanding of what it means to be an older adult and to navigate the aging process in America, the idea that a cell phone needs bigger, fewer buttons, the idea that a website needs to have a single click for everything, that using an app to deliver groceries is beyond them. The number of stereotypes has been absolutely insane. But it’s one of the only silver linings from the last few years in the new normal that we’ve entered, which is there was never a trepidation around technology adoption among seniors.

Dr. Barclay:

It was always, I’m not scared of the tech, but nobody’s spending the time educating me on how to use it and what my benefits are in using it. And so now that we’ve collectively taken the time to because we had to get them comfortable with telemedicine, get them comfortable with app grocery delivery, get them comfortable with buying more of their day-to-day needs on Amazon, as just one random example, the idea that technology is now fused with that UX is a huge part of how we can now do insights work that weren’t even able to do four or five years ago.

Dr. Barclay:
We would have gone straight to some of the most, again, stereotypical textbook approaches of let’s do some all intercepts, let’s give some folks a call and do some phone polls instead, what we’re doing now, we’ve taken advantage of the digital transformation on the business side of things. We’ve taken advantage of the new normal and the very transformation of consumers and how they’re consuming and what they’re consuming today and are at the heart of it.

Dr. Barclay:
Blending primary research, and consumer research with analytics and advanced analytics and AI and saying let’s build one fluid circular process that starts with concept identification, needs identification, concept testing through primary research, moving into beta and testing and release as then those solutions are out there in the wild, pairing with but then leaning a little bit heavier toward the analytic side, understanding what the different segments are of those using it and how that lines up with the research we did in the first place. And then create that feedback loop, whether during their exits from a solution or just in general on a sort of whether it’s quarterly, biannual, or yearly, depending on the roadmap and depending on the organization creating that full circle that says I went and identified a need.

Dr. Barclay:
I then identified a core concept and segment that would likely benefit most from that need. I tracked them through analytics and omnibus surveying, among other things, as those needs were being met and coming back around to say, and for the next iteration, for phase two, phase ten, and phase 100. How can we optimize next? And so one of the things that I truly believe has been a competitive advantage for Tivity, not just in the wellness space, but as a 2020 and beyond organization that’s gone through digital transformation is very few organizations are comfortable merging their researchers with their analytics folks. But we truly believe that melding that bridge as a single team and a single cycle of delivery is how we’re not only maximizing the data that we’re capturing from older adults, but it’s also maximizing how we’re serving them.

Dr. Barclay:
Because it’s not just one method or the other, or thinking we’re fancy and doing multimethod approaches for just the primary, or just doing advanced analytics for the usage and retention, tracking and segmentation, or the marketing, all of that is part of the same conversation. And it’s deeply embedded in the day to day conversation of how the businesses run. It’s not just skunk works on the side and saying, hey, business, you need to look at this thing that we found. It’s so neat. We’re part of the conversation, we get the questions asked, and it’s because we go full cycle. And it’s because that data is being collected at every step of that circular process directly from the seniors, who then directly benefit from it.

Ellie:
That’s very interesting because that’s always been the danger of insights: Sometimes, their voices aren’t heard at the right table with the right decision-makers. So embedding them within that strategic decision-making is critical. Has that always been the case at Tivity Health? Or is that something you and your team have brought about?

Dr. Barclay:

That was blood, sweat and tears for the last 15 years, honestly, and I would never give myself credit for coming up with it or even leading it, but being a part of an amazing group of folks who said two things, really, one, that isn’t different anywhere else, that if you have multiple insights groups diffuse throughout your organization, they’re never going to have enough collective voice to ultimately alter the strategy in positive ways. So just centralizing and galvanizing all that talent and centralizing all of that work toward a honed set of business problems was priority one. And then it was. And then how do we mature our capabilities over time? How do we mature the data we’re using the way that it’s stored and provisioned? How are we advancing our approach to analytics? How are we moving into advanced analytics?

Dr. Barclay:
The traditional descriptive goes diagnostic, goes predictive, goes cognitive, like getting us up that ladder while also evolving the data, while also evolving our research methods and the ways that we’re conducting that research. But the part of it that was really tough to pull off was you can centralize, you can optimize the toolset, you can optimize the data, you can upscale your team, but that’s still, even that moment, it still doesn’t prevent you from being ignored by the business. Because as much as there is literature and classes, and trust me, I’ve done my share of these programs. Because again, just a lifelong learner, right? Whether it was analytics with T Bird, whether it was insights with Columbia, or competing in AI with HBS, I loved my time with each one of these programs.

Dr. Barclay:
But they all taught me the same lesson and took back the same lesson to the organization, which was that you can be great at your domain. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re honing in on and understanding the same problems keeping the business up at night. And to only truly understand those requires great, deep relationships, which is why so much of even the hiring problems that we’re running into now are not just supply problems; they are not anyone. I mean, we’ve all seen the articles. You can command an incredible salary right now as a data analyst, data scientist, and prompt engineer. These things are possible today.

Dr. Barclay:
But that still doesn’t say I can go beyond domain expertise and create meaningful, lasting relationships with my business partners to such an extent that I not only understand what keeps them up at night but might even have some ideas on how we can help them fix them. And so it’s yes to all the things around domain expertise, it’s yes to all the things around amazing storytelling and being a trusted advisor. But it’s going beyond trusted advisor, as in you’re not just there to harm or to serve simply yourself. And it’s going that level deeper to say you got to have domain expertise, you have to have storytelling skills, you have to be and always act in a trusted advisor sort of mode or mentality, right?

Dr. Barclay:
But then it’s also you’ve got to forge those deep relationships because unless they feel a problem and then pick up the phone and ask you to talk through it, or you already have that normal cadence built to where you can dive in together, you’re never going to be leveraging all those tools, all those skills, all that process, all that centralized horsepower toward anything that business truly needs from you. That relationship is the only way to understand what the business needs from you. So, sort of to put a bow on this point, you can deliver all the greatest product analytics, marketing, analytics, and the best concept research. But if when your C suite is ultimately meeting with their board on a quarterly basis, and they’re talking about something else, you’ve missed the boat. Your relationships aren’t as strong as they need to be.

Dr. Barclay:
And I’m not saying that insights professionals, even at an executive level, need to be in every c suite conversation or need to be in the board conversation. It’s definitely not the case because not every professional to VP and above level is in those meetings. But to have all the same context that their lieutenants have, to have all the same knowledge of what the true priorities of the organization are, beyond just keeping the lights on and running the business. That’s what we’ve spent the most time on. We’ve spent time centralizing, we spent time on tools, but we spent the most time honing those relationships and understanding. If we’re going to deliver anything, what’s the thing that’s going to actually let you rest your head on your pillow and get some z’s? Because unless we know what that is, we are not going to be heard.

Ellie:
Right? That was very eloquently put and sort of sums up the problem of the insights industry a little bit, doesn’t it? So I want to return to this point and how you ensure that some of the. I mean, obviously at Tivity Health, you talk about having done this work for years now and reaching a level where you’re seeing it translate into your services and products. But I would be intrigued to see what steps you took to bridge the gap between those insights and analytics members and get buy-in from everyone because people come from their own traditional ways of thinking and acting and so forth.

Ellie:
But before we touch upon that, I want to briefly ask about some of the products or services you can discuss that might have come out of some of the insights and analytics work you’ve done recently at Tivity Health.

Dr. Barclay:
Sure. Thanks for asking. So, of the many products we have available, the three core ones are going to be our Silversneakers product that’s available to Medicare Advantage members nationwide. We have our Bernalong plus, which is our commercial product. It’s also a fitness and wellness product, but it’s available to employers. So the 18 to 64 market. And then we have holoth living. Living is complementary and integrative medicine across things like Acuchiro PT and massage. Where I’ll spend my most time on this is with silver sneakers, because that one not only has coverage of roughly one in four Medicare enrollees across the country, but it’s also one of very few fitness plans that are available to more than 95% of all Medicare Advantage plans today.

Dr. Barclay:
And so we have, just in our own right at the moment, over 18.5 million Medicare Advantage and Medicare supplement enrollees who are eligible for silversneakers. And silversneakers at this point not only offers a lot of what I covered across fitness and wellness, whether it’s in person or virtual solutions, whether it’s in community or at home, whether it’s in the gym or solo outside of it, and it’s a lot of what we’ve built with the program. The program has been around for about 30 years, and every single month, hundreds of thousands of seniors are staying active in our network, and we’re activating millions more every year. And a lot of what our insights have helped drive for the product.

Dr. Barclay:
Before the pandemic would have been about feature sets, it would have been about what classes are people taking, what amenities are they using at the gym, what on-demand and community offerings might be good supplements around, maybe a traditional gym routine, because the whole thing is of no cost to the senior. And so it’s really just about understanding and leaning into fitness habits that were already established. But now, in the new normal, a couple of things had to change. One that had to change was their very routines changed. And it wasn’t just so gym-specific or community-specific or home specific.

Dr. Barclay:
Physical activity in general and wellness, in general, became so much broader and so much more fluid across seasons and venues and connection points like digital versus digital, live versus digital, on-demand versus in person, that we needed to understand who our consumer was again after we thought we knew them for 27 years, and we did know them for the first 27 years, but then we had to completely gain a different and updated understanding of who they were, and not just how they consume fitness, but how they defined it. So then we could not only catch up but continue to be the harbinger of solutions that make sense.

Dr. Barclay:
So much of what the insights have built for us and provided for the business over the last just few years was defining that consumer in the new normal understanding where all those different venues and patterns of consumption were, and then understanding what are still some of the unmet needs. So looking at things like, just by way of a couple brief examples, one’s going to be Silversneakers live. Our virtual live platform for fitness programming, which you can do anywhere on basically any Internet-connected device, is something that wasn’t nearly in as much demand pre-COVID as it is today. But then it was understanding, okay, then what are the feature sets, what are the pain points, what are the obstacles, the friction to getting people to then use this thing that they told us they want? Another is the idea of burn along plus.

Dr. Barclay:
So our commercial solution, pre-Covid, was pretty focused on the gym network. But since the new normal and the tech adoption being accelerated, I think it was McKinsey that said something like ten years of tech adoption in the first ten weeks of COVID. So, going all the way back to those days and understanding that fitness became digital almost overnight. You saw, not only did you see the closure of 25% of gyms nationwide, but then the rest of the 75 went straight to I need an in-person and some sort of digital or virtual or on-demand solution for those who aren’t yet comfortable coming in now, granted new normal, now very post sort of acute phase of the pandemic, people aren’t as gun shy coming into the gyms as they were before.

Dr. Barclay:
And in fact, we’ve seen plenty of articles these days about some of the largest gym brands in the nation saying they’ve actually got membership levels above pre-Covid at this point. And they’re happy to see how many people are focusing on their health. But that’s just about creating a venue, an opportunity for them to be, well, what we’re focused then on is how do you use these tools on a personalized level, at an audience level, for the person, for the individual, against their goals, against their obstacles, their needs, their desires. That’s where so much of our insights work is honed. Where before, in essence, it would have been Persona work and we might have stopped there.

Dr. Barclay:
Now, it’s how do we take something like Personas, even from their more detailed audiences, and finish with such personalized experiences over the next year or two that literally every one of those 18.5 million members has a different silversneakers experience as a result of them being willing to provide just a little bit more data about themselves than they might have provided before the new normal?

Ellie:
Yeah, this trend toward personalized healthcare is incredibly interesting. How do you envision consumer insights contributing to the rise of this trend?

Dr. Barclay:
Well, here’s what’s interesting about that. Not only do you see demand, palpable, substantive demand for personalized experiences from every generation, but it’s also that the very levels of demand for personalization in healthcare and other spaces now, at this moment, this very moment, older adult demand for it rivals the same level of demand as Gen Z and others. And so it’s not something that’s coming. This demand is already there, and we’re just answering the call collectively. And I would say if we take insights approach and define an insights organization the way that we do at Tivity Health, that blends analytics and primary research to come up with something that’s not just multimethod but a little bit more holistic and creates a feedback loop, then you get to bring in the best of both worlds, from primary research and from advanced analytics.

Dr. Barclay:
You get to bring in from primary research ideas like Personas and audiences, and advanced segmentation from analytics bringing over things like AI and not even necessarily Genai and chat GPT. We’ve got enough people talking about that. But this is about AI helping make healthcare not just personal but more surgical and targeted and more couture for each consumer of it. Because it’s augmenting diagnoses, it’s augmenting the very billing and coding process, it’s augmenting scheduling. There are so many feature-rich advancements that have occurred just in the last few years. AI, reading dental x rays, these are not Sci-Fi anymore. And so if you then look at how can my understanding of the consumer provide a personalized Persona and how the AI can then support and augment the very human delivery of healthcare, understanding what that sort of one-to-one relationship can be.

Dr. Barclay:
It’s both sides of how we define the insights organization that can then become a support structure, the scaffolding for personalized healthcare, and a version of personalized healthcare that because it now understands your goals and objectives and some of your current stumbling blocks, whether it be chronic conditions or whether it just be consumer preferences, it can actually help you stay on the wellness track longer with fewer human interventions along the way.

Ellie:
With the rise of this whole personalization and also using AI, as you mentioned, comes the risk of how you’re handling the data, right? And the data privacy aspect, and in particular in healthcare, that’s obviously a sensitive subject. So how do you handle that activity? Health?

Dr. Barclay:
So that has honestly probably been the place of largest investment for us. It’s one thing to say, let’s go out and continue to scour the landscape for the newest analytics tools or the newest research tools, and taking advantage of things like our members, and not just older adults, but consumers at large now being willing to give you just a little bit more data than they gave you before. As long as there is that established reciprocal relationship of I give you a little bit more about me, I get a better experience in return. That’s going to bolster the consumer research part of it that’s going to bolster the understanding part of it. But the data part was harder because choosing tool sets for now, getting to do things like virtual qual, the set is out there.

Dr. Barclay:
You just have to get through them and understand and evaluate your needs. The same thing goes on the quant side, whether it’s not just as big a decision as do I use SaaS or SPSS or Alteryx or somebody else. Those questions still exist, of course, but with bigger things like moving to the cloud, digital transformation, getting off of your own data centres and getting into places that leverage some of these more, not just cloud-enabled, but places where you can spin up provisioning of your data on the fly. The benefits to productivity, the benefits to creativity and analytics, and the benefits to insights creation are huge.

Dr. Barclay:
But the risks are even bigger because you take your average CISO and you say, okay, chief information security officer, I’m going to move all my data off of the server that we are leasing, and we’re going to go put it on someone else’s box in the cloud, and it’s going to be just as safe as it was before. There’s this deep distrust among those who just don’t know and don’t have the experience and the exposure to some of these technologies to then say not just how am I going to keep that data safe, then understand in a healthcare context, HIPAA’s no joke. CMS, no joke. High trust, no joke.

Dr. Barclay:
These things are comprehensive, intrusive, expensive, and altogether necessary to secure and maintain not just patient privacy but patient trust, consumer trust in the healthcare system and with their data, that it’s not taken advantage of, that it’s not misused, that it’s not just out there to create new widgets for products to sell back to those folks. And so we’ve spent more time, I would say, doing three things on data than anything else. One was just understanding what data we ever had for so many organizations. Still; that is still their biggest stumbling block is you think you have 50 databases, you’ve got 60, you think you have 600 databases, you’ve got 5000.

Dr. Barclay:
There is no end to the value that can be extracted from just understanding how many datasets and getting down to the very cataloguing and lineage work that’s necessary to say what is my true enterprise data set. And getting it from multiple sources of truth to a single source of truth is no small feat. And it has taken completely dedicated teams with considerable investment over literally years to go from disparate data systems in an on the prem data centre to a single source of truth that’s governed by lineage cataloguing the works. And until you do that work, you don’t even have a shot at not only understanding what’s at your fingertips, and thus what needs to be protected, but also until you get to that level of centralization and governance before you even move it anywhere.

Ellie:
That’s also how you understand those catalogued data types, which ones are Phi, and which ones are PII. And so there’s so much work to just be done with structuring, governing and centralizing those datasets before any of the analytics work happens before any of the research happens, and certainly, before any digital transformation happens. And I can tell you we’ve spent quite a bit of time and quite a bit of investment centralizing our insights.org upskilling our team and bringing in new tools. But the thing that we’ve spent the most time and the most investment on is the data. Because it’s not just the maximum of garbage in and garbage out. It is a single misuse, a single missed step, a single environment that any of that goes into that isn’t where it should be, unwinds the whole operation.

Dr. Barclay:
And especially in a Medicare, in a CMS regulated environment like ours, it’s the permanent black mark that you go to every sales conversation, you say, by the way, we had a breach before, we need to tell you about it now. Activity has been around, and silver Snickers has been around for 30 years, and we don’t have to make that claim because that’s not something that’s happened to us. So it’s this very purposeful evolution of centralization of the team and creating that circular insights flow that was all crucial. But you’re absolutely right, Ellie.

Dr. Barclay:
It wasn’t until we spent the years and the investment getting the data right that we first governed catalog lineage classifications, true governance, and into a single source of truth, where the very KPIs of the enterprise were selected at once, and the data was in a place that was trusted not only by the clients we serve but also by the members that we serve. More specifically, it wasn’t until we spent the years and the investment getting the data right that any of the other work that we’ve talked about could even be done right.

Ellie:
And what role do you think synthetic data will play in the future of healthcare, if any?

Dr. Barclay:
Here’s what I love about synthetic data. A, it can be created so much more easily now than before. Thank you, AI, for that. That’s going to save somebody a heck of a lot of time and investment. But b is I really do think that healthcare is going to become more product focused than it ever has. Been before. And it’s kind of like the same thing. You take Genai specifically, and you have multiple experts from multiple domains that have leveraged AI for longer than most consumers have. Most people who even knew what chat GPT was last November said that AI is not new, and machine learning is not new. Creating things with AI is not new. But what has been new is we’ve handed AI to the consumer to say, now it’s a product you can go use. Healthcare is getting to the same place.

Dr. Barclay:
So there’s still so much of the control today. That’s with the insurer, that’s with the hospital system, that’s with the PCP and the specialist. But as we continue to move into more AI, augmented and AI enabled, not automated, but augmented and enabled, and as we move into a more personalized, wellness-focused experience, where there are things like cost transparency and process transparency and data exchange, where the consumer is exposed, not only does this consumer get a more vested interest in their own healthcare, which is what they’re demanding, but it’s also something where healthcare becomes more productized, then all those folks who developed all that long range expertise of productizing everything else under the sun come into the healthcare space and say, well, if healthcare is a product, do I have some answers for you on what we can do with this next?

Dr. Barclay:
And so that’s truly where I think the sort of the not leading edge, but we’re getting to maybe a leading edge of healthcare that says the productization of it. Where there are product managers who are managing UX’s on healthcare, that’s something where were already behind the ball moving from sick care to healthcare, to wellness, to preventatives. The next bastion, the next chasm is the productization of it. To then say, well, if now this is the focus, and we’ve created tools around it, now, how do you maximize the UX, maximize the utility, maximize the lifetime value of those products you’ve now created as a result of that shift in focus, I think.

Ellie:
Right. And with that whole product focus, it brings about an interesting question: Do you think there are any risks with some of the big tech companies moving into the healthcare space or trying to move into that space? Beyond the positives, do you think there are any risks with that?

Dr. Barclay:
I think if there was any one small list of risks that are immediate, there’s still so much of how we personalize today, how we productize today. That’s a black box. And I am not going to be the first person who’s going to come on here and say, Ellie, everything has to be opened up. Everything has to be exposed. The inner workings have to be available to every consumer. There’s a balance because even something like buying a car just because I own a car doesn’t mean that I know how every piece of that engine works. But I generally know how cars work, and I generally know how to operate one. That’s not going to be the same for the output of an LLM, right?

Dr. Barclay:
We’ve had great research just published by folks over at HBS that said that there is still a very jagged frontier to what AI can even enable. There are some tasks, even among white-collar, high-value professionals, where AI sings. And there are other areas very close to them, just very close. One moving from maybe ten ideas for a product or ten ideas for ad copy, to then moving to ten ways to inspire a product team to go design around that next idea. Very close kin where AI is falling flat because we still have to remind ourselves it’s not human. It’s doing its best to replicate what we’ve said and done in the past.

Dr. Barclay:
And so much of what I think is the immediate risk is we get a new tool in our belt, and we immediately start using it without knowing how it works. And I’m not saying that everyone in the world needs to be a data scientist, a prompt engineer, or an AI engineer to use AI. I’m not going to be that guy. But what I am going to say is just understanding some of the basic building blocks of how those things come to pass, and what, knowing enough to know what they’re capable of and knowing enough to know what their limits are. That’s what’s critically important. Because it’s one thing to say, how comfortable are you at having AI augment your physician’s diagnosis versus how comfortable are you with AI just being what creates your diagnosis?

Dr. Barclay:
And those are two very different answers from consumers today. But some of those same consumers are saying, oh, if I need to go write a sales deck, I’m just letting AI do it all for me, and I’m just making sure it doesn’t say anything outlandish. And I’m publishing. Those are both critical tasks, creating value in very different spaces, that there’s somebody on the receiving end that’s going to need, that has a lot of needs that are being met and a lot of value created from those outputs. And we’re seeing them with different levels of skepticism because one impacts us personally and one impacts our business, and it doesn’t seem to have the same level of perceived risk. And so I’m not saying to slow down, I don’t think we should.

Dr. Barclay:
But I think the very ubiquity of tools we don’t understand just means that creating ways to make it more accessible in terms of the understanding, in terms of just basic education around it, to then know what it is capable of and what you can ask it, but probably shouldn’t ask it. That’s the biggest risk. And the only other thing I’d say is for those who are already using it to augment, to really help consumers understand, to what degree is it augmenting? To what degree is it coming from the professional? To what degree is it coming from the AI? Is it confirmatory? Is it in the brainstorming with them? Obviously, if it’s not diagnosis, but what’s the interplay? What’s the relationship for those who are already using it to augment?

Dr. Barclay:
So the person then has that informed decision, because it’s very easy to say, oh yeah, this person just used AI to create diagnosis, or this person used it to confirm diagnosis, but confirmation, there’s different degrees of that. There are very different degrees of that. It’s the I google what temperature chicken needs to before it’s safe to eat. I’m going to trust that answer, but it’s just as easy to ask it how to build something I’ve never built. Whether a random thing that I find when I’m hiking is consumable, the level of trust is too blanket, I think.

Ellie:
Right. And with regards to the future of new products and AI and diagnosis, what role do you think healthcare professionals play in that? And also ensuring that they are receptive to the new tech.

Dr. Barclay:
Yeah, it’s so not unlike the same way that we need to continue to manage internally for our insights teams to be successful. It’s the same kind of managing up with this technology to those providers. There are so many benefits to managing up and across in an organization when you’re in an insights team because that’s where your relationships are being established. And much in the same way that, say, pharmaceuticals spend a lot of time with doctors, not just making sure that they’re well taken care of, but make sure that they’re completely informed about the prescriptions and about what those drugs can do for their patients and what the potential side effects and interactions are. It’s not just looking it up in a book and the tool tells you which one to prescribe.

Dr. Barclay:
There are very trusting relationships in those conversations that need to be replicated with these kinds of technology where much like we can take insights to a COO and say, I can make your operation 6% more efficient with this productionized model, or I can predict with 95% accuracy what your output’s going to need to be in the next six months. These are things where you can be very clear about the value of letting us in, and it’s doing the same for AI, and it’s doing the same thing in healthcare. It’s managing up and across to say, this is what it is, this is basically how it works, this is how it’s going to benefit you. And here are some use cases where folks have seen success with it in the past. And just as important to the last part of the conversation, here are its limitations.

Dr. Barclay:
Here are the places where it’s going to continue to fall flat. And so it becomes a tool they’re comfortable pulling out of their tool belt, not something that’s seen as to replace them. Right? If we just spend a moment zooming out, that’s still the same trepidation that every white-collar professional feels at the moment that has anything to do with a domain inside a business that could be impacted by AI. Is, well, is AI coming for my job? Are the robots going to take me over? And every single person who has published a meaningful, rigorous study around AI has come back and said that augmentation for so many of those high-value positions is the way to perceive. It’s not about just replacing all humans with robots. That’s not the intent.

Dr. Barclay:
There are definitely processes inside of organizations that can and should be automated, and that just opens up that professional to go do other more high-value work. But we will see those places and businesses that can be most automated will continue to be replaced. But those jobs then get just replaced with different tasks because now that those are automated, you create other ways of creating meaningful value inside those companies. And that’s where those folks can then be deployed either to work with AI or not. And so much of this, again, is just understanding the managing up, the managing across, understanding what the capabilities are and then saying not only how does that play into capabilities in healthcare, but as many capabilities inside of any business looking to leverage value out of it.

Dr. Barclay:
Insights, organization, whether it’s just one built on primary research, one built on advanced analytics and AI, or a combination of the two, really.

Ellie:
Right. With all that new innovation and tech coming, how do you balance that with ensuring that the solutions are still human-centric, which you talked a little bit about?

Dr. Barclay:
Yeah, that’s the part that our team is most passionate about, frankly. I mean, we spend a lot of time with execs, we spend a lot of time with industry partners. We spend a lot of time on Capitol Hill. But the part that we truly pride ourselves on and the part that we honestly believe continues to not only be a source of competitive differentiation for us but something that says, how can we know we’re doing a good job? Because that’s the thing about blending domains. When you blend a research domain with an analytics domain with an AI domain, the definition of a good job changes primary research. It’s getting to the AHA, it’s understanding, it’s unearthing the thing we didn’t know before.

Dr. Barclay:
With analytics, it’s finding the pattern, predicting the next move and doing so accurately, or appealing to a specific segment and a marketing campaign, and seeing being two x. The lift with AI, accuracy is so built in. It’s about what can be productionalized, what can be automated, and what parts of a product or a delivery or a service can be supported and augmented with it. But when you bring all that together, the good job, the litmus test of true value in an insights organization is not just that the business will go take what you have to say and do something with it. That’s just table stakes. That’s how we get to continue to play in the game. The litmus test of success is, are you truly, accurately, empathetically representing your consumer?

Dr. Barclay:
And we’ve had our own clients tell us, we ask the question, how do we make you happy? What do we do next to make sure that you’re still happy? Right? And that’s a reductive way of putting it. But that’s basically the question. And the answer is always, you make my members happy. You make me happy. So that’s why we’ve set up virtual equal, that’s why we’ve set up omnibus, regular gen pop tracking mechanisms. That’s why we’ve set up regularly recurring pulse research. That’s why we have a whole team dedicated to advanced analytics and spinning up even more AI than we’re doing today, why this route to personalization is not just about creating a different experience at of one, but also getting it to where it’s defined by the member, him or herself.

Dr. Barclay:
And so we’re not just saying, oh, we’re going to take a Persona and a couple of attributes we have about the member, and then we’re going to put those into our portal and give them some context-based recommendations. Our first step, even after all those capabilities have been stood up over the last number of years. Our very first step is to create a guided onboarding process that gathers that little bit more from the member directly around goals, obstacles, points of friction, needs, desires, and the whole bit. And in those 10, 15, 20 data points max that are collected, then the personalization process begins. We don’t even start the process of personalization without hearing from the member or herself.

Dr. Barclay:
We pride ourselves on taking that approach because it is not only helping us continue to win in our space and keep wellness at the forefront, but it also permits us to go back to our clients and say we’re doing everything we can to make your members happy, and we know that’s going to keep you happy as well.

Ellie:
Such a critical point. Keep your consumers happy, and everyone will be happy in the end. But in terms of the different members that you’ve onboarded, you mentioned you have quite a few on your program, such as the silver sneakers. How do you think the cultural and demographic factors influence their behaviors? And how do you manage that in terms of that diversity?

Dr. Barclay:
So one of the things that CMS, the government organization that manages Medicare, is focused on, and is especially focused on now more than ever, is the idea of health equity, and it’s of ensuring everyone has equal access to these solutions. And if you’re a supplemental benefit, making sure it doesn’t matter if you’re rural, urban, suburban, doesn’t matter if you’re 65 or 90, that you have the same access to these supplemental benefits. Health equity has become central to everything we’re doing. And so what we’ve noticed and what we spent the most time in the new normal understanding about our consumers, what those differences are. And we understood, just take one brief example of COVID vaccinations.

Dr. Barclay:
So our omnibus tracking covers things ranging from fitness to nutrition to social connection, technology adoption, and mental enrichment, and we also tossed in a few flexible questions around things like COVID-19 vaccination. We asked two critical questions. One is, who are those trusted sources of information for you? And what we found in the end was it didn’t matter if we were talking about COVID vaccination later, we were asking about things like care coordination. We’ve also asked about things like technology adoption. When it comes to trusted sources of health information, the very ubiquity of health info is crazy. But their trusted sources still just come down to three their health plan, their PCP and their pharmacist. And it doesn’t matter the topic, if it has anything to do with their health, they still stick with those three.

Dr. Barclay:
Why that’s important is then when we ask about something like code vaccination, we say, okay, great. So, have you talked to your doctor, and you’re going to go get vaccinated? They say no, and we ask why. And we get very different answers based on the person’s cultural background. Right. And it’s not just a race and ethnicity play, it’s a theological understanding too. Right? People’s very belief systems are tweaking how they’re approaching their wellness. And so much of what we’re trying to do is not just make sure that those who enter Medicare Advantage Medicare supplement through disability, as well as those who age into it at 65 are receiving an equal opportunity to stay well and to approach healthy aging with as many resources and tools as we can provide.

Dr. Barclay:
But it’s also understanding those nuances like a live virtual class; what are the other nuances that we need to take into account on preferences for communication, access to broadband, and access to an in-person community that might supplement when they’re not in the live class? What we find in working with our industry partners and our clients and the Hill alike, is not only do you still have only 15% of older adults that are meeting the CDC’s recommendations for minimum physical activity, the whole 150 minutes a week, and of rigorous activity, of moderate to rigorous activity, but we also find that what’s preventing folks from being as active as they want to their issues ranging from broadband access to various facilities to just a basic understanding of even how to log on to a Zoom meeting and take a class. Right?

Dr. Barclay:
And so even though now on average, roughly 40% of seniors are still are using virtual social platforms to connect Facebook and others, but the other 60%, it’s not just because they don’t want to, it’s because some of them don’t have even sufficient broadband access to do it. So when we continue to roll out our solutions, it’s not just continuing to improve on the experience in person, it’s ensuring that our in-community experience is keeping up our virtual experiences, keeping up at-home kits are keeping up. We’re providing as many different options as humanly possible for how the person wants to stay well while making sure that we’re also tweaking for things like accessibility and tweaking for things like technology preference along the way.

Dr. Barclay:

When we deliver these solutions to this very varied group, and as the last point on this, and not only has CMS said this, but Better Medicare Alliance and Healthcare Leadership Council and Physical Activity Alliance have all mentioned flavors of this. In this place, we play the most in Medicare advantage. It’s the underserved who are the fastest growing segment of Medicare Advantage. There were a lot of stereotypes about who signs up for Medicare Advantage plan at this point. Still, we now come to know from looking at the data long enough, the trends are pointing toward the underserved, minority, rural, low income, those are who are signing up for these plans at greater rates.

Dr. Barclay:
And when these plans are managing 16 1720 supplemental benefits under a Flexcard or a basketing system, and we’re just one of those options, it’s not only making sure that we are part of a very palpable, inviting, delighting experience from day one for that person saying, yes, I’m so glad I signed up for this plan that includes silver sneakers. It’s also ensuring that all of what they need to even get started is approached and solved for. And that’s so much of what we built our omnibus tracking around into the new normal was not just to understand who that consumer is, but also understand what those obstacles still are to consuming the very solutions themselves.

Ellie:
Right. And one of the interesting points that you mentioned very early on in our conversation was the definition of wellness and what that means for people. You mentioned that meditation is now considered part of wellness. Obviously, that has come about. The topic is now less taboo after the pandemic, etcetera. But it is. Do you think that within this group of people, the elderly, that has always been an issue? It’s only now that we’re talking about it and addressing it.

Dr. Barclay:
You know, it’s a really interesting point, and we’re still uncovering it. And here’s why we’re still digging in, because you’ve got at least two factors at play. First is even among the 65 plus today, you basically have two generations playing in there. You have the silent generation, and you have baby boomers, both that are in that 65 plus. So it’s not an even 50 split. Anyone who does the demographics on Medicare and on older adults knows that it’s not an even split. And baby boomers have really come in a much bigger wave. And in fact, the second factor that gets in the way of truly understanding sort of an aggregate, what’s happening here is there are only a few more years of boomers left coming into Medicare. By 2029, the last class of baby boomers will be entering Medicare.

Dr. Barclay:
After that, it’s Gen X. Gen X is going to be entering Medicare by 2020 or 2030. And so not only do you have palpable differences in consumers between silent and baby boomers? I truly believe those differences are even more varied between baby boomers and Gen Xers who, on one end, higher-tech adoption fitness was built in from a young age. Right. These were the days of all the one-off fun fitness options like steps and ab crunchers and all those as seen on TV devices that follow. Fitness was always a part of the Gen X life, and baby boomers, to a large extent, adopted a lot of that. But what will require a shift in how we engage, not whether or not when, but how we engage with Gen X.

Ellie:
It’s a reductive statement to make, but I think it’s an important one to make anyway. Gen Xers are more in denial of being classified as old than any generation before them. Right. It’s a little bit because, and I put myself in that category, I think it kind of caught up to us quicker than we thought it was going to. And a lot of that is sort of a number of these traumatic events that we’ve experienced. Right. Boomers had the wars, and we’ve had so many other things after. But it’s. What’s more crucial to understand is Silent’s different than Boomer. Boomer are different from Gen X, even just generationally.

Dr. Barclay:
And so then to understand the subcultures inside of boomers as it shifts to Gen X and understanding where differences in belief system, differences in race ethnicity, differences in geography, even regionally in the US, change the very perception of how something like fitness should even be consumed and whether it’s something top of mind that, yes, it’s not just about, are these topics less taboo and actually more part of a person’s wellness regimen? But then how do you introduce it to a new kind of older adult that doesn’t want to be classified as an older adult in the first place and definitely does not want to be treated like an older adult?

Ellie:
It’s a very interesting point, the differences of how to connect with different generations, a whole separate conversation in itself. But I want to touch a little bit about some of the trends that we’ve seen lately. And this is probably predominantly in the weight loss aspect, but the growing popularity of medical solutions. How do you see consumer preferences shifting between medication and preventative health actions?

Dr. Barclay:
Yeah. And so much of our focus has really been on the older adults. So our answer would be skewed. Right. Because even just summarizing it all as biohacking or some neighboring concept, this just, it isn’t something that older adults are open to. In fact, it wasn’t until this year that there was even a need to understand that the whole category was even part of any RFP process with any one of our health plan clients. And so to now understand that it is part of the conversation, that it is in the zeitgeist, whether fortunately or unfortunately, I don’t claim here or anywhere to support or to not. But it’s rather, it’s. We’ve studied not just brand preferences, but brand and behavior preferences among older adults.

Dr. Barclay:
And what we found is for so many of the fealties, to brands, to services, to products that older adults established, they established them well before they reached this age category. And while I don’t have a specific age cliff at when all those decisions were made, I can tell you that for so many of the fealties, they claim they were far before they reached Medicare age. And so what’s going to be interesting for organizations like mine is to understand how much influence can something like this, assisting through more medical means to influence, say, Gen Xers once they start arriving in 2030? Boomers, it might be too late to have a palpable difference in trend. It might not buck the trend on what they’re looking for in the next three or four years. Right?

Dr. Barclay:
But Gen Xers are still young enough to claim new fealties and not be quite as stuck on brands, products, and services quite to the same extent as their baby boomer neighbours are. And there will always be opportunities to change the minds of boomers. The last thing I would claim is that they’re closed minded. That’s not the point I’m making. But the point I am making is I love Jif over Skippy. That’s a decision that was made many years ago and how I choose to stay fit. Do I go to planet fitness? Do I go to a YMCA? Those decisions were made a long time ago, too.

Dr. Barclay:
But because boomers moving into Gen X, especially Gen Xers, were one of the first generations to say what are the tools at my disposal to meet my goals, that’s a way of thinking that was thrust upon them differently than it was during the boomers and the silents. And so I think there will be more open for medical means to enter that fitness consciousness among Xers. And so we may not see an immediate trend shift for us, but over the next few years, I would be surprised if it doesn’t arrive interesting.

Ellie:
Before we wrap up, I want to talk a little bit about the future. In terms of the different stakeholders that we talked about, the consumer, the healthcare provider, and leaders in the insight space who wish to have an impact. As we talked a little bit about earlier, starting with the researchers, what advice would you give them? You mentioned earlier on about having other business solutions in mind besides looking just at their own domain expertise, but what advice would you give them when they’re looking to have an impact in society, whether it’s in healthcare or other verticals?

Dr. Barclay:
Yep. So it’s two things. One is because they need to remember, and this was something that it took me a really long time to learn. You’re in the conversation because of your domain expertise, so don’t spend so much time convincing them you know what you’re doing. You are wasting your time. They’ve already voted you to the conversation. It’s happened. It’s not about proving yourself at that point. It’s about contributing to the collective conversation you’ve been invited to. And that gets in the way. And I see it all the time. I really do. My organization, other organizations, a more junior analyst, and a more junior researcher spend half of their presentation talking about their method, thinking that if I get my method presentation right, they’ll take action. It’s not about believing you know what you’re doing. They already know what you’re doing.

Dr. Barclay:
You have the job; you’re part of the project. Don’t worry about it. Focus on the insight. Don’t focus on what it took you to get there. And in fact, I’m sorry, but they don’t care. They really don’t. If you know you can rely on your data, if you know it’s good data, they won’t ask you how the sausage was made. Just focus on the insight and make sure that they hear it in a way that says, what’s in it for me? I’m the business stakeholder. I asked you to the conversation. Don’t tell me the p-value; tell me what you found and do it in a way that says, here’s how I know what to go do next or think next or stop doing.

Dr. Barclay:
The other bit of advice I’d have is all the way back to what we’re talking about with relationships. So it’s not networking. And I know most who would listen to this podcast would surely shudder at the very words mentioned. It’s not networking, although that’s important if you want to climb the ladder. That’s not what I’m talking about, but relationships, true relationships. Relationships where you understand your business stakeholders needs you understand their day-to-day, you understand what foxhole they’re in and what they’re firing at and who or what they’re trying to accomplish. It’s not just share a lunch, have a friend. That’s Joe. I love Joe and Joe loves talking to me. And Joe is running a very successful marketing organization, but he still gets 4 hours of sleep at night because X and when he needs help, he’s going to call me.

Dr. Barclay:
Because we know how to work together, we know how to speak each other’s language. I know enough about his part of the business and I know enough about our business that when I then see something in our data from our consumers that can help, he knows I’m going to give it to him in a way that’s going to help his part of the business and help his team be successful. Those relationships go beyond simply making sure that you’re mentioned by name when a need comes up. And it’s that they trust that you have their best interest first. And so I totally get that. There’s, especially right now with AI, there’s this very rabid stereotype of data scientists and advanced analytics and research professionals don’t know how to talk to humans. That it’s crazy.

Dr. Barclay:
It is ridiculous and crazy and it’s hackneyed and it needs to end. It’s not about being able to give a good presentation, it’s not being able to have, it’s not about polish, it’s not, you know what you’re doing, you can actually give a stumbling presentation. But if it has immense business benefit and they can get that from it, you don’t have to be the greatest storyteller in the world. But I will tell you, solid domain expertise, storytelling ability, and a strong business relationship together, you are unstoppable.

Dr. Barclay:
And what about for the consumer who sees this trend of personalizations and wants better products that serve them as an individual better? But they’re also a bit fearful for how their data might be used. What advice would you give them?

Dr. Barclay:
Ask questions. Never stop asking questions. And so much of our research around older adult tech adoption says, I’m not afraid of the tech, I just want the education of how to use it and what it is. So it’s, I’m not afraid of smartphones. I don’t need some flip phone with giant buttons, right? That’s not what I need. Quit treating me that way. You tell me to download your app, and I’m saying, okay, just show me how to use it and what I benefit from it. But right now, the onus is on the product provider. The onus is on the solution provider. The onus is on the business to sort of guess at what questions need to be answered next and what level of education that consumer wants from us.

Dr. Barclay:
And it’s not me as a researcher being lazy, but it’s that we’re trying our best to read your mind, but we can’t actually read minds yet. We’re still working on it. So if we can’t do that yet, will you please just ask, be sure always to ask some questions around. How does it work? How’s it going to benefit me? Why can I trust this recommendation? What do you need to know from me to give me a personalized experience? And what are you going to do with that data? And please, please do not give it to me in a two page legal about how we will protect your data. There’s a place in the world for those disclaimers. And don’t get me wrong, I love my lawyer friends and their disclaimers. They’re very necessary because there’s nothing more important than keeping these data protected.

Dr. Barclay:
There isn’t because then we lose trust in the whole system. However, there also needs to be a consumer-friendly version of the explanation of what data is being captured and where it’s going. And I will say one thing that doesn’t get a lot of questions anymore, which I’m really surprised at by consumers, is this whole idea of cookies and how cookies are not even evolving but devolving at this point and how third-party cookies are sort of on their deathbed and that whole thing. So that will change the game for who gets to see what of somebody’s behavior anymore.

Dr. Barclay:
And we’ve done well to communicate to each other on a domain level for what’s coming, but who’s really educating the consumer on what all that means for them, that the next time they go from ReI’s homepage to checking their Yahoo and they stop getting Rei banner ads and they go, oh, that’s nice. I wonder why that stopped. That doesn’t have to be a surprise for them. Yeah. But in the interim, until business figures out how to be more, not just, I mean, human-centered design has been around long enough that we now know how to merge it with insights, work, and product design. But until our communications think the same way, not just the product itself, our education around the product is working the same way. Just please ask questions. We’ll be happy to answer them.

Ellie:
Wonderful. We started the session with you talking about joining this industry and joining the company to have an impact. So, what impact do you hope to have in the senior health and wellbeing space in the years ahead?

Dr. Barclay:
Independence. And it really does come down to independence. So, so much of our research that’s future-focused, and that’s also been we’ve replicated others have replicated us on what are the motivations around healthy ageing. What are the motivations for around starting a fitness routine at 65, which is really scary, by the way, or starting a gym membership for your very first time when you’re 72? That’s an insane thing to consider, right? So just thinking about in general, what do folks want out of healthy aging? What is the chief motivation? Right. It really only comes down to a couple of things: longevity, independence, and purpose. And as long as those three things can be supported, preserved, and extended, that’s where not only am I hoping all of this ends up, but that’s what I and my team are trying desperately to continue to contribute to as well.

Dr. Barclay:
Don’t get me wrong, the new normal with a focus on wellness and 51% saying meditation is part of the definition, our boundaries are expanding, and that’s amazing. And AI is going to help us and augment that path, and we’re all going to be smarter humans because we’ve built smarter tools to support us. All of that is amazing. But if it’s not contributing to either longevity, independence, or purpose, older adults will get nothing out of it.

Ellie:
What a fantastic objective to end with. Thank you so much for this session, Doctor Barclay. It’s been fantastic having you on our podcast.

Dr. Barclay:
Pleasure was all mine. Thanks, Ellie.

The post Ep. 11 – Deciphering Healthcare’s Cryptic Senior Consumers, with Dr. Justin Barclay. appeared first on Kadence.

Transcript

Intro

Welcome to “The Elusive Consumer” podcast! Today, Ellie is joined by Daniel Bluegrind, Senior Consumer Insights Manager at Roku*. The podcast dives deep into the intersection of consumer insights, qualitative research, and data-driven innovation. Tune in as they explore the evolving landscape of consumer behavior and discuss how Roku leverages these insights to stay ahead in the tech world. Prepare for an enlightening conversation on the art and science of understanding today’s elusive consumers.

*During the podcast recording, Danielle held the position of Senior Consumer Insights Manager at Roku Inc. She currently works as Senior Manager of Consumer Insights at Upstart.

00:05
Intro:
Welcome to the elusive consumer. Today, Ellie is joined by Daniel Bluegrind from Roku. Join us as they discuss consumer insights, qualitative explorations, and data-driven innovation. Let’s get started on the elusive consumer.

00:19
Ellie:
Okay, I know you’re a busy woman, so I’m gonna jump straight in and welcome you to the Elusive Consumer podcast. We’re so happy to have you here with us today. And I know that coming from a market research background, you’re going to be passionate and driven by data. So I’m very excited for this conversation.

00:43
Danielle:
You nailed it. I certainly will be. And I’m excited to talk to you as well.

00:46
Ellie:
Great. So could you start by telling us a little bit about your journey and how you came to specialize in consumer insights?

00:56
Danielle:
Sure. My interest in consumer insights actually started back in graduate school. I had a part time job working for one of our professors and he had been a dean at USC and taught market research. And I started working on some projects with him. I’d only taken one market research class because that’s all the MBA program had. But I loved the combination of psychology with maths. You’ve got. I’ve always liked math, I’ve always liked numbers, but I didn’t want to be an accountant. For instance, I like numbers with a story. So when you start putting psychology and human behavior together with that, and then that’s even before qualitative opened up my world.

01:45
Danielle:
Just the quantitative piece where those numbers meant something and they told a story and they had action to them and recommendations and you could, may affect what businesses do and what products they sell and all these things. I was hooked. So I decided straight out of my graduate program that I was going to go into market research.

02:07
Ellie:
That’s wonderful. It’s often many people who I speak to who have a role in consumer insights or analytics, et cetera, sort of have fallen into the role. But it’s always nice to speak to someone who instantly fell in love with it. So let’s talk a little bit about Roku. We all think we know what Roku does and is, but could you clarify a little bit for our listeners? Is it hardware? Is it software? Is it a bit of both?

02:38
Danielle:
Yes, it is a bit of both. First of all, I love to tell this story because all we’re going to ask me, what does Roku mean? Where did that name come from? So I’ll tell you that, because whenever I share it, people are like, oh, I had no idea. Anthony Wood, who started our company, had already started five other companies, and he had developed this streaming box, when he was working at Netflix and was going to. Going to be a Netflix box, I’ve seen the prototype of it. At the last minute, Netflix decided we don’t want to be in the hardware business, we’re just going to be in the content business. So he got permission to take the product he developed and go start his own company.

03:15
Danielle:
And he was sitting at a sushi restaurant with his wife trying to decide what to name this new company. So went with the japanese word for six, which is Roku.

03:24
Ellie:
That’s amazing. I love that story.

03:27
Danielle:
Here we are. Sushi. Sushi is wonderful in so many ways, right? So it guided the name of this company. And yes, it’s software and it’s hardware. So you have a device, right. We started as just a device company, something that you could attach to your television so they could, you could stream tv, you could stream content over the air, over the Internet. Anthony strongly believed that streaming was the future. I think he’s very visionary in that way. He sees what he thinks things are going to be like ten years down the road and when things are going to hit tipping points. And he really felt strongly about bringing streaming to people.

04:04
Danielle:
So he developed this box, which was not small at the time, that you attached to your device that allows you to access streaming content, what little of it there was at the time. But for cutting edge people who understood streaming, it was very much revolutionary. We were the first ones to bring this product to the market. But within that hardware is the guts, right? The software of what makes Roku what it is and how that people interact with it, the user experience, the interface. It was always very important to him that it be super easy and intuitive to use. So that’s been hallmarks of what we do ever since then.

04:43
Danielle:
In 2015, we entered the tv business where somebody else, like TCL or Hisense or on the Walmart brand, they’re providing the hardware and we’re providing the software that goes into those televisions so that you can get that user experience built into a television set.

05:03
Ellie:
Right.

05:05
Danielle:
Latest thing is we have our own, that we make everything. We make the tv hardware and the software. So that’s the latest thing that came out in March, is our own Roku tvs.

05:14
Ellie:
Right. That’s amazing. And I want touch upon that and how you gathered the insights to create the best hardware for it as well. But before that, let’s talk about your sort of responsibility and focus areas within your role. Sure.

05:34
Danielle:
So we have this player business that we talked about. We have the tv business and we also have smart home and that we have traditionally been a us based company, but we’ve certainly expanded. So we have business in South America, Europe, Australia, Canada. So I work on both streaming players and smart tvs everywhere. That’s my scope. It’s big.

06:00
Ellie:
And when you say big, are you talking about big in terms of the data available to you or the team available to you or the portion of the revenue for that particular department?

06:13
Danielle:
It’s a lot of those things. So smart tvs are really becoming the focus of our business because if you look at, if you have bought a tv recently and maybe your last tv was five plus years ago, you know that prices aren’t going up, they’ve come down. So purchasing a tv for you could purchase a tv for $150 versus a streaming stick, that’s maybe $50. Sometimes people go into the market looking to buy a streaming stick and end up just thinking, why not just get a tv with everything built in? So as all those prices come down and tvs become more and more accessible and smarter than ever, we see our focus shifting towards that part of the business.

06:57
Danielle:
And so that where that’s going and what our competitive set is internationally and in the US is a huge area to dive into research-wise. Plus, streaming players are still very relevant. We’re still selling, you know, great numbers of those sticks devices, the ultra, which is more of a box format. So looking at everything that we look at, which is, you know, what are we calling these products? What are we pricing them, how are we positioning them, which should be the form factor for this thing, and what should be the price point for this television? Which features are going to go into it? Which are the most important?

07:36
Danielle:
All of that.

07:37
Danielle:
Our team is working on 24/7 shopper research and tracking research. So when I say big, there’s just a whole lot of work to be done, which is great because it’s never, ever boring.

07:48
Ellie:
That’s wonderful. You mentioned several different methodologies and approaches there. I want to talk a little bit about that because I know at Roku you gather both active survey data as well as passive data, like behavioral data. Can you tell us a little bit about the difference that you’ve seen in having access to that behavioral data in your role at Roku?

08:12
Danielle:
Yeah, it’s great. We have an amazing analytics team who’s always mining what’s going on. What are people actually doing on their devices? Sometimes people, when we ask them what they’re doing, don’t recall as well. It’s human nature to recall the important stuff and maybe not every little detail of everything. And that’s okay. And that’s why it’s so great to supplement the survey work with the analytics. Recently I started a tracking study looking at smart TV buyers, and recent buyers, and I think the best presentation we had was one where we came together and shared our tracker data and the analytics team came in and shared their internal data so we could look at all those different places where things were dovetailing, where were telling the same story. And then we can tell people, okay, here’s the analytics.

09:04
Danielle:
It’s showing up when we ask consumers what they do, we’re seeing similar patterns, but then we can add texture to it that’s not in the logs. You don’t know what else they have in their home, what genres they like to watch, or why they wanted a TV to begin with. Why were they in the market for one, what features were most important, why did they choose our Roku tv over all the competition? So putting all that together is a really powerful way for people to understand what’s going on with the business.

09:36
Ellie:
I love how you mentioned that because it’s so important to give that holistic overview to really offer up a solution. And I want to touch a little bit about that as well in terms of the what versus the why, in terms of running more qualitative work, how much of that do you do at Roku, and what value do you think that adds?

09:58
Danielle:
But first of all, I love qualitative. I had breakfast this morning with another market researcher, and we got into great, passionate conversations about all the things we love. And one of them was qualitative because it gives you so much texture as to the whys. So I get the what out of my survey data, and I know what people are doing, and they can tell me a little bit about it. But unless I, you know, without knowing how people are going to answer it, you don’t know where to probe further and you can’t build that into a survey. So once you get your quantitative data back, if you have that opportunity to speak to people, whether it’s in focus groups or.

10:38
Danielle:
I’ve recently done quantitative, and now I’m shopping along with people in the store, so I have an opportunity to probe into some of those things I saw in the quantitative. That’s what brings it to life, that’s what makes it really real and about people. And I, that’s why I love to bring my product people along. My marketing team, when they are in a store with somebody or they’re even in the back room listening to people talk, that’s when things come to life. It’s not just numbers, and it’s not a consumer base. It’s individual people. And they will remember. They will say, remember that guy who was shopping and pulled out his phone and looked up every television on the consumer Reports app that his dad bought for him?

11:20
Danielle:
Or remember the guy who, you know, bought one Roku Ultra and loved him and put him on, you know, seven TVs in his new home? And here’s why. Those are the stories that supplement the quantitative, and those are the things people remember, the big picture. But the stories are what continually bring them to life. Those are the anecdotes that they retell over and over. So there’s such value in putting a human face in human words to those numbers.

11:48
Ellie:
And I love that you brought that up because some of the most interesting conversations we have on this show are about those anecdotes. Are there any interesting, funny, or surprising insights that you could share with us through your years at Roku or previous organizations that still sort of stick with you?

12:08
Danielle:
Oh, my gosh. There are so many. Sometimes it takes a prompt or something that’ll make me think, oh, yes, remember that person here who did this? But I can remember sitting in a Taco Bell, and there’s this amazing Taco Bell in Pacifica, California, which is on the beach. So it has a walk-up window for the surfers, and two of them were talking to two guys who just happened to be in the restaurant, and they’re in there, you know, board shorts and bare feet. And we got such a great conversation going with them that we offered them, we said, can we make you something to eat? And they’re like, yes. You know, there are 20-something guys. You offer them food, the answer is always yes. And were testing a product, which is now it’s been out for years and years.

12:56
Danielle:
It’s our crunch wrap that came out of an insight that we score really high on, like, flavor and taste and craveability and really low on portability. It’s hard to take tacos to go. It’s hard to eat a taco in the car. So we made these crunch wraps for them. And then once we’re chatting with them, we said, could you, do you think you could drive while you’re eating this? And we had one guy just sitting at a table who puts the crunch wrap in one hand, puts his other hand out like he’s driving, starts to move it back and forth, takes a bite, and goes, yeah, I could do that. This is fantastic. He’s mimicking driving inside the Taco Bell to test out our product.

13:36
Danielle:
But, you know, it was just those conversations you have with people, whether they’re planned or they’re spur of the moment, are just so amazing. I’m trying to think of some others. Gosh, late night. Okay, late night ethnographies at Taco Bell were a hoot, that’s for sure, because went out to people wherever they were going from either, let’s see, it was either nine to eleven or twelve to two. So, lots of fun stories because we accidentally, and I mean this, did not realize we were scheduling ourselves for a Saturday night in San Francisco, which was St. Patrick’s Day.

14:12
Ellie:
Oh, wow.

14:15
Danielle:
So we couldn’t have stayed with them till five in the morning if we wanted to. They were not quitting. We were done. So, of course, you know, lots of fun times running around the city and watching them drink, but eat, too. And there was, you know, still quality time there and lots of great anecdotes of shenanigans in the city, let’s put it that way.

14:35
Danielle:
But it’s just everything I’ve done, whether there’s a funny anecdote or not, I still remember, I remember sitting and running ethnographies when I was an independent and talking to this Gen X guy who had been out of work for a while, and he had three kids and a wife, and I asked him about aspirations, and he starts tearing up because all he wants to do is take his family on a wonderful vacation before his kids are out of the home. And he doesn’t know if he’s going to get to do that because he can’t find work. It’s just like the simple, oh, just one family vacation that’s memorable, right? I have goosebumps talking about him. And we’re still in touch.

15:16
Danielle:
I ended up Facebook friends with him and his wife online, and just to see them so happy and successful now brings me such joy. It’s, you know, it’s really cool to see where they’ve come. And they did get that family vacation, the exact one he wanted once he found work. But those moments that touch you when people are really vulnerable stay with you for a very long time.

15:41
Ellie:
That’s such a strong point because I think oftentimes a lot of corporations, in particular, get bad repair, and a lot of consumers and customers don’t understand what goes on behind the scenes and how important they actually are to the companies. And their thoughts and feedback, because without those genuine connections and authentic engagements, corporations and companies just cannot make better products and services. So it’s amazing to see that you’ve experienced so many of those instances. I’m going to move on a little bit in terms of Roku specifically and some challenges that you might have seen in gathering consumer insights for Roku.

16:30
Danielle:
I started with Roku. It’s almost exactly four years now. And what we have an incredible resource in that. I’ve got a database of people. Anyone who’s activated a device, I have their email address, and as long as they haven’t refused to be contacted, I have access to over 70 million email addresses. So I basically have my own proprietary panel that I can tap into at any time. And at the beginning of COVID oh my goodness, everyone was thrilled to take surveys. They were home, they had tongue on their hands. Our response rates were through the roof. Like, it was just a magical time to be a researcher, now, wasn’t it? Yes. Now I feel like we’re almost back to below pre-COVID levels.

17:23
Danielle:
People did so much of that during that time that I can’t even get the response rates I got four years ago. So it can be done. It just means instead of sending to 100,000 people, maybe I’m sending to 300,000 people or something like that’s okay. But I’ve seen that decline, and that also makes me worry, who are the people who aren’t responding anymore, and are they different from the people who are?

17:52
Ellie:
That’s a very interesting point. In terms of how to approach those elusive and diverse customers. It’s a struggle for every organization. I believe in many different ways. In terms of ethical considerations, what sort of struggles do you have at Roku for gathering behavioral data? Specifically?

18:19
Danielle:
I don’t work on the behavioral side so much, but what is being collected is through the device. So I know things like how many hours in a month that device has been actively streaming. I know if they haven’t, how long it’s been since they haven’t used their TV or device or things like that. I don’t know who is using it. I don’t know how they’re using it, other than the fact that I know if they’re streaming versus if they have hours that maybe they’re watching a cable box on it or something like that. But I don’t know who they are. I don’t know if their children are watching or if it’s them watching.

19:00
Danielle:
So it’s very much numbers, not people on that side of it, which is as it should because they’re not filling out a survey and saying, here, you can have all of my information. I’m happy to share this with you. It’s just being passively collected. And so while there’s times where we look at it and say, oh, we wish we knew X, Y and Z and what they were watching and this and that, there’s also limits to what we should be privy to.

19:29
Ellie:
Right. And you mentioned supplementing that data with survey data. And one of the best ways to get the most out of in terms of feedback is to include a lot of open ends. So could you maybe tell us in your experience, how do open ended questions in survey provide that valuable feedback and help shape product development?

19:54
Danielle:
Open ends are fantastic. They’re a wonderful tool. And I have text analytics that I can then use to pull out because let’s say I survey and I get 3000 responses back, I will skim through those 3000 responses to each question, to be honest, because I need a human lens on it. But I also put in text analytics, I’m not going to code 3000 times, you know, four open ends. Right. Thank goodness. So putting it into there gives me overarching themes. It tells me how prevalent different responses were. But I think the, and I’ll share that with people. But I think the real magic comes in when you pull out those representative quotes where somebody just put something into words in a way that’s like, aha. Like that is just summing up exactly this top theme, whatever that theme may be.

20:48
Danielle:
The theme could be Roku is very easy to use. And then someone, you know, I remember someone said, I asked a question among new users, what drew you to Roku? Why did you start decide to purchase this brand? And I remember somebody’s quote, we know we’re easy to use, but somebody’s quote that brought it to life was the fact they said, well, I was talking to different friends and then I talked to my brother in law about it and he recommended Roku. And if he can use it, anybody can. Like that’s taking, it’s easy to use to a new human level. So when we get those little gems, we love to put those into reports and share those or just when we’re not even soliciting it.

21:32
Danielle:
And we tend, sometimes we put at the end of a survey, is there anything else you want to tell us? You can skip it, you can say no or you can just hit next and skip the question. But then we’ll get people who will just say, I love you guys. So much. I love Roku. This is the best thing I’ve ever come across in my life. And I love to share those with the internal team to remind them that you hear from people in customer service that might be unhappy with something, that have a frustration. But they’re quiet little people out there who are sending us love every day, and I love to share that with the teams.

22:06
Ellie:
That’s fantastic, because like you said, it’s often the ones who are the most unhappy who take the time to provide that lengthy feedback. But it’s always nice to see positive feedback in terms of customers who might struggle to express their needs or preferences, whether it’s for features, new products, et cetera. How do you address that challenge?

22:30
Danielle:
We try to design our surveys in such a way that we’re using as plain English as we can. First of all, you don’t have to be techie to give me feedback on why you wanted a new tv or what features you wanted in your new tv, for instance. So we’re trying to use very plain language. And another thing we try to do is use that combination of quantitative and qualitative in the surveys. So we already know most of the reasons people would need a new tv or most of the features they could want in a tv. So the best thing I find to do, instead of just asking them and having them try to express it, is first give them a list of things.

23:17
Danielle:
Well, which of these were important to you or which of these were motivations for why you wanted to do this behavior? And they can check those off. And then we might ask a follow up question that builds on that. That is, and again, trying to make some of those optional so that if people have something to say, they can. And if they don’t feel pressured to answer that question. Maybe they just said, I wanted a 4K tv done with question, move on. That’s fine. But for others where there’s a more complex situation, they have the opportunity to provide a little bit more feedback. And I think that combination of those pre lists and then an opportunity to speak if you want to say more, helps us get to what’s going on. But even so, you could miss somebody.

24:07
Danielle:
I was doing a survey on churned users, people who have any kind of Roku tv, whether it’s Hisense, it was all partner tvs at the time, but we’ve noticed that, say, for three months they haven’t streamed on that tv. And we want to understand why we found out different groups of people with different motivations for why they weren’t streaming anymore. But what we did was we found people within each of those representative groups, and I emailed them directly and said, hey, this is Danielle: from Roku. Thank you for taking our survey. And I just want to ask you a few more follow up questions, because I felt like there was something more to learn about. For instance, people who abandoned streaming and went back to cable, was it Roku they abandoned? Was it streaming in general, why go back to cable?

24:57
Danielle:
That’s just one example of a group. And I got such great information from them when they. Yeah, actually, we had well over 50% response rate to that because it was an individual. It wasn’t, you know, just a generic email. It was from me and had people, you know, one woman explained, she said, when I took the survey, I kept waiting for the place where I could tell you what’s going on. And there really wasn’t a place, but here’s what’s going on. I live in a rural area, and we get cable or we get satellite, and it works okay. And I really wanted to replace it by streaming, but we just don’t have good broadband. And my husband is a stick in the mud, and he won’t change his ways no matter what I do. And I was like, enough. Sid got it.

25:36
Danielle:
So, you know, she needed that place to tell her story and didn’t really get to tell it until we had that one one conversation. And using that technique has been amazing. It’s not about quantity. Again, you’re going back to quality interaction at small levels, but it helps understand why you’re seeing what you’re seeing in your data.

25:59
Ellie:
Yes. It’s so important to give the consumers a voice because you get so much out of that voice, and it could help tremendously with your bottom line.

26:08
Danielle:
Yes.

26:09
Ellie:
So do you have any examples of features or maybe some upcoming improvements that were driven by consumer feedback?

26:17
Danielle:
Oh, gosh, lots of things. So one of the things, when were doing shopper research a couple of years ago on smart tvs, we did not have a display in Best Buy, and Walmart doesn’t do that. They have the tv wall, and you can go through and you kind of organize by size. But at Best Buy, if you ever walk in, you can see how much money LG and Samsung and Sony, especially LG and Samsung are spending for these end caps and for their big wooden structures on the wall that have their name at the top and things like that. And we didn’t have that because were not a tv brand, were a tv software.

27:00
Danielle:
So one of the things that was really important to us when we launched our own Roku tvs this March, when we’d seen how people interact with those and how they look at that and say, well, if they have a big display, they must be a serious brand. They must be a brand. I should actually consider that just tells them that this is a brand that knows what they’re doing. They’re going to be around for a while. They must be a top brand because Best Buy put them up there even though they paid for it. That’s the impression that people get. And so we did those displays where we have Roku and lights at the top and we have this beautiful display and it’s interactive.

27:34
Danielle:
And I don’t know whether or not we would have made that decision to make that investment, because it is an investment if we didn’t know how strongly consumers would respond to that.

27:46
Ellie:
That’s fantastic. Another question related to a point that you made earlier. You talked about changes in research during the pandemic. How have you seen consumer behavior change in terms of the last, say, five to ten years beyond the global pandemic that we all suffered through? And how are you and Roku preparing for upcoming trends?

28:17
Danielle:
Well, one, I don’t know if I should call it obvious, but one that we can’t deny is the shift to online that was absolutely accelerated during the pandemic. So people who, yeah, I could shop online, but I’m comfortable at my neighborhood store. I don’t mind driving down the street. They couldn’t do that anymore, and so they were forced into online shopping. I mean, if you asked me to go get something from Target, I used to drive down the street from Target. I live in this weird space that’s 7 miles from four different targets. There’s nothing closer than second miles. So I know it’s going to be like a 20 minutes drive. I would still go to Target.

28:56
Danielle:
I don’t know the last time I’ve been to Target because I’m so hooked on the app, and if I buy a certain amount of stuff, there’s no shipping and it takes no effort from me. So I did it because I was forced, and now I continue it because I like the benefits and the lack of interruption in my day, and they’ve proven trustworthy. I get what I asked for. I get it on time. It’s not damaged. So I think a lot of people who are very hesitant about the idea of online shopping, once forced to try it, said, okay, this is not so bad. Or if you’re older and you’re worried about the technology and whether you could do it. You figured it out and you learned it, and now we’re comfortable with it.

29:33
Danielle:
So sure, some people are going back to in store, but lots of us have said, let’s just stick with this online behavior. It’s simpler, it’s easier, it’s faster. I was, I’m comfortable with it now. So that’s a big change we see even in how people are purchasing tvs. It used to be, oh no, I would not want to have a tv delivered. It’s going to get damaged. What if someone steals it off my porch? Those things can happen, but there’s recourse for them if they do. And they’ve had so much positive experience with the idea of purchasing online that we definitely see a shift now. People still want to go into a store to look at a tv because you have to love the screen, right? Love the picture.

30:16
Danielle:
But they’re so much more open to purchasing things online now than they would have been five years ago.

30:23
Ellie:
Yes, and the shift in over to online also reminds me of another shift, the era of AI that everyone loves to talk about at the moment. How is AI reshaping the way market research and consumer insights are conducted at Roku?

30:40
Danielle:
We are not doing research, I would say that is AI based. I’m not using AI to replace any of the human research that I do. It’s a great tool on the backend. In fact, that text analytics, that’s exactly what it’s using as its foundation. When I first started using this text analytics company, that was not the case. And then they let us know when it was being integrated. It basically uses a form of chat GPT, but it’s not open. So anything I’m not teaching the system. My data that I put in there is proprietary. They do not in turn have to, as a result, share it with the makers, the developers, so that they can improve their system. So my data is secure, protected, proprietary. But it’s leading to such better analysis of unstructured data.

31:40
Ellie:
Right.

31:40
Danielle:
So I’m all for that. Like if I can use that in a safe way that’s protected and not replacing human interaction, but replacing a technique for saying, what did we learn here that makes it faster, something great, right?

31:58
Ellie:
Absolutely. As we say, to remove the repetitive tasks and basically augment the human. So talking a little bit more about some of the smart home space that you mentioned earlier, because that’s also something that is fascinating. What are some of your predictions and thoughts on smart homes, smart cities of the future? How do you think these will benefit the consumer?

32:26
Danielle:
I think if we have the consumer in mind from the beginning and we are really trying to benefit the consumer, then it is going to make our lives easier, more connected, smarter. If I can pull out my phone and decide how my house is lit and what temperature it’s at and all those kind of things, or turn off my air conditioning when I’m gone and then set it up because I’m coming home in 15 minutes, I save money. It’s automated. I want to put one of those door locks in the front. That’s the automated door locks. I think why not if it’s making my life easier. And have you ever been locked out of your house?

33:05
Ellie:
I have. Oh yes.

33:07
Danielle:
Okay. Because you forget a key. I’m not going to forget my phone and I will be able to get back into that house. So it just makes sense for us to do this as long as the goal is truly to make consumers lives easier, to make them better. And it’s, you know, it’s not. I don’t know anything much about connected cities, but I would say that as long as the truly the consumer is at the forefront of what they’re designing and they’re really thinking about that and not like how do we get their data and how do we control people behaviors and make them do what we want them to do without them realizing. But it’s really designed so that it improves quality of life, then I’m all for it.

33:49
Danielle:
It all comes down to who is doing the designing and what their motivations are in my mind. But I’m cautiously optimistic that we could see amazing things in the next 1020 years and I’m all for them.

33:59
Ellie:
Sounds great. I want to go back to the role of consumer insights and also researchers and what role we all will play in the future and in the space of smart city, smart homes, AI, what skill sets do you think are going to be critical for the future researcher to have?

34:21
Danielle:
I think it’s a lot of what we’ve got already and then plus, so what do we have now? We have to have innate curiosity. We have to care about what we learn. We have to engage in what we learn so that we ask more questions, so that we learn more, so that we go deeper. You have to really care about that and not just be in the business of fundamentally reporting some regurgitating data and calling that a day. You care. You get excited about insights, you get excited about your data portal being open and your tab is being delivered and you can’t wait to dig in and tell the stories on behalf of the consumer. All that curiosity and innate nature of being the little detective who goes through all the things and pulls the story out has to stay the same.

35:11
Danielle:
But I think we also have to be flexible and open to both. What’s new technology? You know what? What can I always look at things and say? If this can add value and make me more efficient at doing what I’m doing? Maybe it’s cheaper, maybe it’s faster, maybe it’s more in-depth, maybe it adds video that I didn’t have before. Whatever the step up could be where I’m not sacrificing inequality, then embrace it. Yes, we have tried and tool methodology tried and true methodologies that were great for us. But that doesn’t mean that new ones aren’t going to be just as great or even better. So don’t be afraid of them. Don’t be afraid of change. Don’t be afraid to meet people in new places. When you do research and explore new venues for talking to them, it doesn’t.

35:57
Danielle:
It used to be all on the phone or door to door. When would we ever do that now? So again, it has to evolve. Where do you meet them? Where do you talk to them? How do you interact with them? Embrace that change and look for opportunities. Don’t look at change as like, oh, I’m giving this up, but what do you get out of it? What is your opportunity? What is something you can do now that you could never do before?

36:22

Ellie:
That’s amazing. And for the new generation of graduates that are considering career in market research and consumer insights, what tips would you give to them?

36:38
Danielle:
You’re going to want to learn the fundamentals first. I know it sounds like they’re ready to go. And then you see all the new methodologies out there and shiny things and boom, how exciting. But you still need to know the basics. You still need to be able to write a screener and write a survey and write a report. Because if you can’t do those building blocks right, it doesn’t matter what amazing, cool technique you used or shiny new methodology you saw. You will not necessarily put the right questions in there, ask the right things of people, or be able to tell the story on the back end. So those things, methodologies, don’t replace people. Methodologies help people do more and do it better. But you still need to know why am I talking to this person.

37:27
Danielle:
What do I need to learn from them? What’s the best way to get at it. And then how do I tell that story on the back end and embrace that? For me, the reporting process is the most fun you can ever have in research.

37:39
Ellie:
And what about the corporations? What would you say to those organizations who, unlike Roku, might not be as data driven, or rather data informed? And how would you highlight the importance of research?

37:54
Danielle:
First of all, they’re missing out. They’re missing out on a key component. You don’t know what you don’t know. I always say that people say, what are we going into stores for? What are we going to learn? I can go into Best Buy by myself and learn things. I said, you don’t know what you don’t know. And once you get in there and you start to hear from consumers, whether it’s because you’re using a new methodology or you’re a company that’s not doing research, there is a whole void out there that you have no idea about that could unlock product ideas, promotional ideas, competitive advantage, and you just don’t know because you’re not spending time learning about it.

38:33
Danielle:
I could give a million stories about how consumer insights helps us with, like I said, with a product, with positioning, with competitive threats, and dealing with them, because you know you need knowledge for everything else you’re doing in your business. You didn’t go in there and find finance. People who know nothing about finance. They have knowledge in that area. You need that knowledge, and you need this consumer knowledge, too. It’s an integral piece that not everybody recognizes.

39:00
Ellie:
And what would you say to companies that are actually making cuts in this area during uncertain times? Because I always find it shocking that during the times when you need to conduct research, the most companies start to shrink their budgets.

39:16
Danielle:
Yeah, I’m definitely seeing a lot of that in our industry. I am part of some networking groups, and the number of people who are looking for jobs right now is just gone through the roof. And what’s going to happen? You know, someone told me once, they said, networking, for instance, this is an example that’s kind of corollary. But he said, networking isn’t something you do just when things are tough. Networking is something you do all the time, and then you’re primed and ready to go when things are tough. Same with the research.

39:48
Danielle:
Don’t wait until you’re in a slump and then you realize you’ve cut your research department down to one person who can’t keep up with everything and then expect them to come up with the answers because there’s a new competitive threat out there or your products aren’t selling and you don’t know why they can’t go back in time and give you that research. And you’ve lost that opportunity for, again, that knowledge, that insight as to what was going on. Or maybe they would have seen it coming. Maybe there would have been red flags coming up and you’re missing that opportunity to gather that intelligence on an ongoing basis. And if you wait until you’re in a crisis position, you’re in trouble.

40:24
Ellie:
Could be too late. On that note, Danielle:, is there something that you would like to tell our listeners that we haven’t had a chance to cover?

40:33
Danielle:
I just have to say I feel so fortunate to be in this business and in this industry of market researchers. And another benefit of COVID it brought us all closer. I started networking with people, with other researchers in other corporate environments, with suppliers, doing these podcasts, things like this. I’ve never felt so connected to us as a group. And I know part of that. It’s not just COVID, it’s technology, and it’s recognizing us as not just individual people, but a whole group of people who care about the same thing. I think there’s such a connectedness among market researchers that you don’t find in all fields where when we get together, you just, our passions for what we do just come shining through and we get excited talking about the same things.

41:20
Danielle:
And I feel so fortunate to be part of a group that loves to do what I love to do and that we can continually learn from because I don’t care how many years I’ve been doing this, I can always learn. I can always be inspired by something that someone else is doing. So what an amazing group to be.

41:36
Ellie:
Part of and what a wonderful way to end this session. Thank you so much, Danielle:, for your time. We really appreciate it.

41:43
Danielle:
Thank you. It was lovely talking to you. I appreciate it, too. It.

The post Ep. 10 – Inside the Mind of the Consumer, with Danielle Blugrind. appeared first on Kadence.

Transcript

Intro

 Welcome to the Elusive Consumer. Today, Ellie is speaking with Stephanie Freier, (Fmr) Director of Consumer Insights at Inspire. Join us as they discuss the work Inspire is doing to provide renewable energy, new strategies for connecting with less engaged customers and working for a mission-driven B Corp. Let’s dive into today’s conversation on the elusive consumer.

Ellie

 Thank you so much for joining us, Stephanie. We’re so delighted to have you with us today to talk about the work that you’re doing as consumer insights director at Inspire Clean Energy and also to talk about your passion for all things research.

 Stephanie

 Before we start, thanks for having me.

 Ellie

 Before we talk about Inspire specifically and the work you’re doing there, tell us a bit about the path that led you to your current role.

 Stephanie

 Sure. So, my background has always been market research to varying degrees. So, in college, I graduated in marketing, but I really had a specific interest in consumer behavior, and that led me to a career in market research. But I worked on the agency side for a bit. That’s really where I got my training. So I worked for a Kantar company at the time, where I started my career and got terrific training on all things research. And then, I moved to a social listening startup in Chicago, which gave me a different view on other methodologies and sparked my interest in working for startups.

And so that was a really fun experience, too, which then led me eventually I moved to LA, and my time at the honest company, I would say was really pivotal in my career as well because I moved from working for the agency side, research partner side, to working for a brand in house. And I think that really showed me a different side to research and how impactful it can be in a company. And so I would say that really just launched a new passion in me for the work I was doing for research. And then also, obviously working for a mission driven company was a whole other topic in my career.

But that then led me to Inspire where I’m at now, and I’m able to basically use all of my experience from the past to essentially build the entire research arm at Inspire from the ground up. And so all of my training from the past really helped me in my role here at Inspire in creating a consumer insights department. And then also just aligning again with that mission-driven part has been really crucial for me in my career to keep me motivated and really interested in the work that I’m doing.

Ellie

 And I want to touch upon that later in this conversation in terms of making an impact. But before that, what led you to have an interest in consumer behavior to begin with?

 Stephanie

 Yeah, I think it probably started pretty young. I’ve always been interested in kind of understanding why people do what they do or what makes us all the same in some ways, what makes us different in other ways based on certain experiences. And I think that really came to life for me. Honestly. In college, when I had a consumer behavior course, it really just kind of aligned where it seemed like such a focal point and important part of marketing. Trying to understand the consumer first seems like it should be the first step in any marketing strategy. And so that really connected with me then and essentially just led me into my career in market research and consumer behavior.

 Ellie

 Right. And in terms of coming from, like you said, an agency background and moving into the client side, talk us through the differences a bit more and also the similarities from your perspective.

Stephanie

 Yeah, I would say working on the agency side, I would say one of the benefits is that you’re working with a team of researchers, and so you have people to throw ideas at, to learn from their experience, to teach them. And it’s a much more collaborative learning environment versus, and it depends on the brand. Some companies have much larger insights teams, but at the honest company and Inspire, the teams have been very small. And so the experience there is that you’re really pulling in all of your expertise from these other roles to then create the best pathway for whatever you’re working on there.

 So I would say that’s been one big difference for me, is just kind of the environment of working with a team of experts versus being the sole expert for a company and having them rely on that expertise is a great opportunity and challenge in its own. And then the other thing that I’ve seen is really just the follow through on the research. It’s a little different when you’re working inside the company. One thing that was frustrating for me, working within a marketing research firm, was that we would hand off this great work to our clients and would never really know if they used it or if it had an impact.

Stephanie

 And so that was hard seeing all of your great work and not really knowing what’s going on with it, but working in house, you obviously get to see if it’s connecting with people, if they’re making decisions based off of it. And so for me, that’s been really rewarding, is kind of seeing that follow through, which is great feedback for yourself and the work that you’re doing, if they’re taking your recommendations or if they’re not trying to adjust your research strategy, it makes for a more cohesive workflow.

Ellie

 Right. And in terms of the consumer research arms at the companies that you’ve worked at and where you currently are, you mentioned that at the honest company, it was a small team. And at your current organization, it’s also, from what I understand, a small team. What do you think makes certain companies choose to actually have a consumer insights arm versus some that do not emphasize the importance?

Stephanie

 It’s a good question. I’m not sure what would make them choose versus not. I think it honestly, it just depends on probably the leadership team’s past experience of working with research. I think at Honest and Inspire, both of the leadership teams that I work with, they were already searching for answers or searching for validation for things they’re doing. And so they were already in that mindset of, we know that there’s a better way to doing this than just kind of guessing on our own. And so that made the whole process a lot smoother because we had that support from the leadership. So I’m not really sure from companies that don’t.

 I think it may just be that they haven’t had the experience to see how useful research and data can be to inform their decisions, to optimize their business plans, and sky’s the limit on how it can impact the business.

Ellie

 And that leads me to my other question. What responsibility do you think lies on researchers to show the impact that data and research can have?

Stephanie

 Yeah, I think it’s very important to really close that loop, and I also think it’s a big challenge, too. So within Inspire, for example, I can give recommendations, but then it’s really up to me to follow up with those teams to see, hey, did you take that recommendation? What impact did that have on the business? And then trying to make sense of that in terms of numbers and additional data points to then use it as a proof point for we need a bigger research budget next year, or I think we should do these studies. And so I think it’s challenging in a way, because sometimes the recommendations are not always quantitative, and then it’s really trying to turn that into some sort of quantitative metric to support your needs to continue doing the research you’re doing and then also expand into more impactful areas.

Ellie

 Right. And do you find that you need to change your tone, sort of, when you’re addressing different types of stakeholders?

Stephanie

 Yes, definitely. I think that’s a crucial part. I would say for any market researcher is reading the room and understanding different styles and preferences, and that’s a learning curve, too. I would say coming into a new company is really trying to understand the consumer behavior of the people you’re working with. So some people are very data-driven, very comfortable with data, and they’ll ask a million questions. And so you kind of learn to cater that discussion differently from maybe there’s, like, another executive who just wants to know what the data is saying, the final line, and what your recommendation is. And it can be a much simpler report.

 And so I think definitely catering to the leadership style of the stakeholders is really crucial in making sure that the research is coming across well, that they understand it and that they know what to do with it. Right?

 Ellie

 Absolutely. So I want to transition over to the role at Inspire. Tell us about Inspire Clean Energy and what specifically differentiates your company.

Stephanie

 So Inspire clean energy. We are a clean energy supplier. We work in deregulated markets. So, for those that are unfamiliar with the energy industry in the United States, we have regulated and deregulated markets. And in deregulated markets, the customers are able to choose who supplies them their energy. It’s not just the utility. They have a lot of options. And So Inspire is a clean energy company that is providing clean energy to customers in these markets by supporting clean energy that’s being created on the grid and then having customers sign up for those clean energy plans so that we’re producing a greener grid, essentially for the entire country. And so I would say what makes Inspire different? We have a couple of different product offerings that I think are unique.

 We have, like, a subscription plan that is helpful for customers who want that subscription model of paying the same flat price and not seeing the fluctuations of high bills in the winter, in the summer. But having that flat bill, I think that’s one unique offering that we have. But also just being able to provide renewable energy in a market that has traditionally not had that offering is really what differentiates us from other suppliers out there. Right.

Ellie

 And I read a bit about your company on your site in terms of the impact that you’re making. And there was a sentence that says that switching to a renewable energy company can be five times more effective than going vegetarian, seven times more effective than recycling, and ten times more effective than composting over the course of the year. I certainly wasn’t aware of that myself. Do you feel that the majority of consumers are, and that the awareness levels of what impact this has is where it should be?

Stephanie

 No. I would say that is one of the biggest challenges for renewable energy right now is the awareness of our customers. And so the first barrier is that customers don’t even know they have a choice. And so that awareness level in itself is pretty low. It’s growing. Customers are becoming more and more aware of what their options are. But even being able to choose a different supplier, many are unaware of that. But then switching to renewables, I think that if you were to ask, most customers would say, yes, this is beneficial for the environment. Yes, this is a good thing and I want to do it. But they aren’t necessarily aware of how impactful that is. And so that’s why our brand and marketing teams worked really hard on creating those. We call them equivalency metrics.

 But having those comparisons so that you can take a quick look at, oh, I recycle every week and that’s the number one thing I’m doing for the environment. And then you can see on Inspire’s website that, oh, we actually have much greater impact by just doing a simple switch to clean energy. And so finding those more relatable ways to educate consumers has been a huge part of the marketing team’s job over the past couple of years and just trying to help bring lift that awareness. Right.

Ellie

 And talking more about the consumers, focusing on the sector overall, the energy sector is fairly regulated, particularly in this country, and less consumer-oriented, I guess. How is Inspire energy disrupting this notion?

Stephanie

 Yeah, I think we are disrupting it in the markets where we are able to, obviously, so looking at those deregulated markets. But again, it’s a challenge and it goes with the awareness. I would say we’re disrupting through awareness tactics. And so having local marketing campaigns or local initiatives that are connecting consumers with the Inspire brand is the best way that we can in terms of educating consumers on the choice they have, and then also showing again that impact that Inspire can make. It’s definitely a slow burn in terms of seeing that progress because there is such an awareness gap right now, but it’s something that we really prioritize in not only to help our own brand, but to help the mission of getting more and more customers on clean energy, regardless of which company they sign up for.

Having increased awareness of that is beneficial to our mission overall. Right.

Ellie

 Going back to your role specifically, and when you joined Inspire, that’s quite some task of building the research arm from the ground up. What were some of the initial challenges that you faced and how did you overcome?

Stephanie

 I mean, I think, first of all, coming from an industry outside of energy, that’s kind of the first challenge in itself. I would say for anyone that’s coming into energy industry, it’s a lot to learn. There’s definitely a learning curve lots of acronyms, different regulations in different states and things like that. And so I would say getting a lay of the land is kind of part one of the challenge of moving into this space. But then from the research perspective, just trying to understand what the needs are of the company and then prioritizing that was essentially how I tackled it from the get-go, was meeting with different leaders in different departments and getting key stakeholders to talk about their day to day where they think research might help.

 And just kind of taking notes and doing, like, a data download the first couple of weeks. And then I was able to really understand, okay, these are the top five areas that I think I should be working on in the first year to really start building this out. For that, it was having customer feedback reports, things like that, kind of those basic things that you would think about weren’t in place. And so making sure that were building a foundation of ongoing reports that would help the company and then also building in key strategic projects that would help the company’s goals. Right.

Ellie

 And in terms of reaching your customers, if you were to say energy consumers, in terms of what makes them elusive, what strategies do you employ to better understand their needs and how do you continue to reach them, particularly in the deregulated markets?

Stephanie

 In terms of research, yes. Are you actually. Yes. Well, I would say the biggest difference that I’ve seen from past experience in other industries is that the energy industry, from a customer standpoint, is pretty low engagement. It’s not the most exciting thing. Customers are not thinking about their electricity all the time. They’re really just thinking about it when they get their bill or when they’re moving and those certain trigger points. And so having that low engagement customer can definitely be a challenge, I think an important way through research for us to keep learning on how to reach them better and talking to them better is really kind of marrying the questions around their energy experience with their perceptions around the mission and so environmental impact, trying to understand how we can reach them in different ways through that.

We do various different messaging tests to understand if they’re understanding what we’re talking about. I think that’s another big part, too, is just that some consumers do need education on how it works in the energy industry and also how clean energy works. And so we want to make sure we’re talking to them in an effective way. And so research really helps with that, too, to understand if we’re using language that hits the mark or if it’s just kind of too technical in the way we talk about things. And so I think research has been a really supportive tool in that, in trying to find ways to reach these customers, knowing that basically their general behaviors around energy, we’re probably not going to be able to change that.

Ellie

 We’re not going to be able to create some amazing product that’s going to change how they think about electricity. So what are other ways that we can shift the experience around mission and understanding of clean energy?

And do you have any examples you can share with us in terms of initiatives or actions you’ve taken based on consumer research?

 Stephanie

 Sure. I would say our segmentation research has had a big impact in the company, and we refresh that every couple of years, knowing that renewable energy trends are always changing, customer awareness is always changing. But I think that’s been really crucial in terms of understanding who we’re targeting, how we message to different segments, and really understanding what their core drivers are. So that’s helped. In terms of our marketing strategies, our digital targeting strategies, that’s been very, I would say, very widely used within the company, and then also just doing general attitudes and usage types of research. It helps us to kind of gut check on everything.

And especially for people who aren’t familiar with the energy industry, having those ANU studies are really crucial to get a lay of the land and remind ourselves, okay, this is how they’re looking at their bill, this is how they are thinking about energy. This is how they’re not even thinking about energy. And that helps us as well to inform product strategies around, do we need certain features? Do we want to build certain things? It’s been able to help inform our product strategy, too, just from a general behavior.

Ellie

 Right.

Stephanie

 And then I would also say our customer feedback reports that we do are really important to the company. We call our customers, our members, and really value our members within the company. And so we put a lot of emphasis on those feedback reports as well. We want to understand how their sales experience was, how their member support interactions are going, if they’re satisfied with their plan that they’re on, and so forth. And having that continuous feedback loop is just really crucial for our right.

Ellie

 And in terms of customers that you haven’t been able to reach yet, or onboard as your customers, how do you navigate that conflict between financial considerations and environmental impact and wanting to do good and better for the environment in consumers decisions to ultimately switch to renewable energy?

Stephanie

 Yeah, it’s hard to say. I think price is always going to be the top consideration factor for the majority of customers. There is a willingness to invest in clean energy. And so I think it’s really finding that balance. And our pricing team is constantly working on this to make sure that we have a balance of providing a reasonable offer for our clean energy product. We know that if our pricing is off, no one’s going to sign up for it. And then that goes against our mission of getting more and more people on clean energy. And so it is a balance of trying to find that sweet spot of affordable, reasonable pricing for a clean energy product. And that’s also why we offer a subscription product as well, just to provide different options for customers.

But we know that some customers are so price driven that they may switch every three months or so depending on what new offer they get. And that’s okay, the customers will come and go, but we really do want to make sure that we’re at least providing something that the majority are going to see as a reasonable price, if that makes sense.

Ellie

 No, absolutely. And I want to touch a bit more upon that in terms of the different generations as well. Do you see any difference in terms of the willingness to change to renewable energy based on what generation the consumers are in?

Stephanie

 Sure. Well, I would say the majority of our customer base are typically in their above. Just because we do serve mostly homeowners, we also serve renters, but a lot of homeowners in that space, and that just tends to skew a little bit older. So, we don’t have the younger generations that I assume will be more and more interested in clean energy as they get older. But in terms of what our current customer base is, I would say that we’ve seen our target audience, the ones that are most eco conscious and the ones that are most interested in taking action tend to be within that, like 30 to. But that’s not to say people outside of that age range don’t care. That’s just where we’ve seen the strongest interest from the research.

 But again, our sales strategies have been mixed so that we are targeting, we do digital targeting to target those ideal customers, but then we also still want to serve these other populations. And so it just depends on our messaging mix and things like that, because we do want to pull in as many people as we can and then help educate on how Inspire can make a difference. And them signing up for Inspire is doing good for the planet. Right.

Ellie

 And speaking of doing good for the planet, focusing on B Corporation specifically, how is working in a b corporation different from other organizations you’ve been part of as a researcher and a professional overall?

 Stephanie

 Yeah, I think from a research standpoint, it just kind of adds a new element to the research. So if I was working for a company that’s not as mission-driven, not a B corp, maybe I wouldn’t ask as many questions about the environmental impact and things like that. And we may be focused on different goals, but since we are so driven towards this goal, it’s always a consideration and a factor that we’re interested in. And so it just broadens how we look at the consumer mindset because it’s not just the product we’re offering and the price we’re offering it at. It’s this greater impact that we want to understand if customers are understanding. And again, back to the messaging, if we’re messaging it correctly. So it just adds a different element, I would say, into the research.

But overall, working for B Corps, I think another huge impact is as an know the initiatives that inspired us in terms of giving back to communities. We have employee treks where groups are going to build solar panels in areas of need, and we have all of these other initiatives that I hadn’t experienced at other companies in the past. And so that’s really been a very enriching part of Inspire’s culture, to have all of those additional initiatives outside of just the core of our work, to give back to the community, right? Yeah. And then also just the people. I would say working for a team where everyone is aligned on the mission, it just adds this magic to the work environment. And working on Inspire, I work with some of the best people. Everyone is so eager and hardworking.

They’re all lined towards meeting our goals because we all care deeply about the mission. And it’s very special to have that type of environment where we’re all working towards a cause together.

Ellie

 Definitely, the idea of doing good while doing business is something that I think every company should strive for. So it’s very interesting to hear how your company approaches that. Can you speak to some of the unique challenges then that you face in your role when gathering and interpreting consumer data for a B corporation?

 Stephanie

 Sure. I think from a research standpoint, there’s not a ton of difference because I try to stay unbiased in how I’m conducting research. I would say more so on building out the strategic implications and any recommendations. That’s where you kind of just wear a couple of different hats. And so you want to make sure that recommendations that you’re making are aligned with the research and with the mission. And if it’s not calling that out and saying, hey, this research study is showing x, which doesn’t necessarily align with where we’re going. Here are some ways to think about that. And so I think keeping that in mind has been really impactful in the way that I communicate research to the different stakeholders in the company. Right.

Ellie

 And speaking of stakeholders, how do you balance the need for profit with the social environmental consciousness inherent in a B Corp while getting insights from consumer data?

Stephanie

 Yeah, I mean, I would say I’m lucky in that’s outside of my role in terms of balancing process and the environmental impact. But we have a team that does a great job with that. But from a research standpoint, again, I think it’s kind of similar to your last question. It’s really showing, this is what the data is saying. And a lot of times the data is saying that customers want lower prices for energy in general. That’s a general trend that we’ve seen, especially in the past year with the market. I still have to report that. I still want to make sure that our stakeholders understand this is where our customers are at right now, or prospective consumers in general. They’re hurting from high energy costs, and so this is where they’re at. And again, this is how they’re thinking about clean energy.

It’s kind of painting the full picture, but also being very honest about what the results are, because I think that just helps to inform more accurate strategies going forward.

 Ellie

 Absolutely.

Stephanie

 Even if it’s not ideal, right? Yes.

Ellie

 People don’t always want to hear what the data say, but that is still equally important. Do you think consumers then respond differently when they know they’re dealing with a B Corp? And if so, how does that affect your strategy in gathering and analyzing the data?

Stephanie

 I think that awareness is pretty low for B Corps. I don’t have a stat top of mind on that, but I would say if you’re talking to consumers, unless they’re in the space, they may not be aware of what it means to be a B corporation. I do think that communicating what it means is really impactful. And so the label B Corp may not mean a lot to an average energy consumer, but then explaining what that all means and what goes behind all of the certification process, it brings out an emotional response in consumers. And we know that buying from companies that give back to community or support local initiatives or support the planet, consumers are becoming more and more interested in that, especially the younger generations, making sure that their purchases are making a difference.

And so whether or not they know what a B Corp is, they are typically aligned with the messaging around that. And so that’s been helpful. I think in terms of research.

We haven’T researched a ton around labeling ourselves as a B Corp or not. It’s more so around education of what clean energy can do and how they can make that easy switch and increase their impact. Right.

Ellie

 And from a consumer perspective, if someone is on the lookout for switching to renewable energy, what advice would you give to them when they’re choosing between different organizations in terms of what to look out for, to make sure this company is credible and the best, so to speak?

Stephanie

 Yeah, I mean, I would definitely look into the details around the plan and trying to understand where the energy is sourced from. And so for Inspire, we have information on where our renewable energy credits are coming from, what projects we’re supporting, and things like that. And I think it’s just important to do a little bit of research to understand if that information is available from the companies so that you get a basic understanding of what percentage of your plan is renewable energy. Inspire plans are all 100%, but some have varying degrees, and then you just kind of align that with your needs and what makes sense for your household. So I would say that’s important. And then also reading customer reviews, I would say for most products, I think that’s important.

Ellie

 And understanding a little bit more about the company and where it came from. I think that’s all just helpful research to get more familiarity around the product that you would be signing up for. And then also what the customer experience would be and what you could kind of anticipate there. Right.

And seeing energy, as you say, not top of the mind of most consumers, what would you say to highlight that if a consumer has the opportunity to switch, that they should do so?

 Stephanie

 Yeah, to me, it’s an easy switch, and it makes such a big impact. And so I think highlighting that low effort, high reward, I think is really attractive to a lot of customers. And then just understanding the impact it makes, and going back to those equivalencies that you saw on our website, understanding how it compares to actions you’re doing every day, I think that is one of the most impactful ways to really connect with a consumer so that they’re really understanding. Okay. There is a huge difference if I sign up for a clean energy supplier versus a regular supplier or the utility. Right.

Ellie

 And in terms of the corporation side of things, what advice would you give companies that are struggling to connect with their consumers, especially industries that are less consumer-centric?

Stephanie

Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, I definitely support research, obviously. I think that is one of the best ways that you can uncover what’s going on, and I would say different types of research as well. So if consumers are really just not engaging, doing interviews or focus groups can really bring out more than maybe like a quantitative survey. And so making sure you’re finding different ways to connect with the customer so that you can really understand their headspace and kind of break down maybe some of the assumptions that your team has, trying to understand if those are valid or not. I think you really just have to hear from the consumer. And I’ve found that having those open conversations can be a lot more revealing than other research methods.

I would say continuing to try with different types of research studies to really crack that consumer Mindset and bridge the gap there is really important, and then also just continuously doing, keeping the conversation open. So for us, talking with our customers, really important. Part of our overall business strategy is making sure we have a pulse on the customer, and then that then leads to optimization research and things like that to make sure that we are doing other parts of the business in a way that still connect back to the customer.

Ellie

 I love that. Thank you so much, Stephanie. Before we wrap up, is there anything that we haven’t touched upon in terms of research data or inspire energy that you want to tell our listeners about?

Stephanie

I think we covered a lot. I would just say that for me, going back to kind of the mission-driven work, I think that working for a company where you really align with their mission it’s had such a great impact on my day to day, my career. It just kind of is a life changing shift in how you look at your work. And so I think, for me, that’s been something that’s been really impactful in my life. And I think it’s just something that is good to keep in mind. Going forward with all careers is making sure that you have that alignment. It just makes the work so much more rewarding. Yeah, I think that’s about it.

Ellie

 Thank you so much.

The post Ep. 9 – Inspire — Mission-Driven Consumer Insights, with Stephanie Freier. appeared first on Kadence.

Transcript

 Intro:

 Welcome to the elusive consumer. Today, Ellie is recording live from Futurefest in Toronto. She’s speaking with multiple guests, including James McLeod from Mind Reader Media, Areizu Azerbai from Trendhunter, Auntie Heitanin from Op Lab, Giselle from Warner Brothers, and Luke Thomas from HP. Ellie speaks with James McLeod from Mind Reader Media in this first interview.

 James McLeod:

 Doesn’t know we’re going to hit the ground running here. So, how are you enjoying yourself here at the Future Fest?

 Ellie:

 Loving it. I love it here. This is my first time in Toronto. Oh, this is your first time at the Future festival?

 James McLeod:

 Okay.

 Ellie:

 It’s been amazing. How’s it been for you?

 James McLeod:

It’s absolutely awesome. And I want to talk about a few key things here. One, we’re one of the most diverse cities in the entire world, and as a follow-up to that, this is one of the most diverse, both by gender, race, and socioeconomic background, I’m guessing that I’ve ever been to, and I’ve been from conferences from here to Timbuktu. So to see such a wide birth of people who are looking to learn about the future trends that are going to be happening in society, I think it’s very empowering and enlightening because AI, I feel, is going to be one of the things that is going to revolutionize our society over the next 20 years.

So the team, Jeremy army, and the myriad of other people that I haven’t had a chance to memorize their name yet, I’m looking forward to saying, wow, I was there when we were talking about this in its infancy, right? I’m unsure if you remember, but I remember when the Internet started.

 Ellie:

 Absolutely. Dial up.

 James McLeod:

 I’m sorry?

 Ellie:

 Dial up.

 James McLeod:

 Oh, dial-up. You’ve got mail. I remember I was there, and I didn’t understand it yet because they’re like, information is going to be going all over the place, and you’ll be able to send this. And it didn’t hit us until certain benchmarks, we had AOL, and we had some of these chat rooms until we had an email that became common for everybody. And then once I grew up with it, while I was in college, university, for those people who know, more Canadian, what happened? I was like, oh, this is going to be going everywhere. It was the idea that somebody could become famous just by being a writer and telling good jokes or eulogizing certain types of data inside.

 Ellie:

 Isn’t that amazing?

 James McLeod:

 It’s crazy. Or I could be talking to a wonderful person like Ellie right before me.

 Ellie:

 Absolutely.

 James McLeod:

 In front of the greatest conference on Earth.

 Ellie:

Right. I mean, what you touched upon there is so much what our podcast is about, bringing data to the masses, making sure you capture everyone’s perspective, and making sure that when you consider doing any research or innovating any product or any services, you are thinking about everyone and understanding what that looks like in terms of diversity, in terms of age groups, in terms of gender. How do you do that in your business?

 James McLeod:

 My company is Mind Reader Media, and we help brands tell their story via social media.

 James McLeod:

 So what we do is we always start off and say, what is your client avatar? What does your ideal client look like? But not only that, who is the person that you would like to start talking to as well?

 Ellie:

 I like that.

 James McLeod:

 And just as somebody famous, a lot more famous than me, said if you don’t know, what gets measured gets managed. So what data numbers do you have behind this to promote this particular claim? So I’ve run into companies, and they’re like, well, we want to talk to these people, but we really need to know, or our clients are really nobody. And I have to say to them, hey, look, no, it’s not. So let’s start niching down. Let’s start looking at some of the metrics that you have already that are available through the meta, through TikTok, and say, okay, we can start a baseline and say 44% of your audience is female, 60% of your audience is between the age of 25 to 45. What are their interests, and what are their income levels?

And how can we drive growth so that we can maximize them? But what is the area of opportunity that you’re overlooking as well?

 Ellie:

 Right.

 James McLeod:

 And some people are a little bit reluctant about that. But with us, we want to say, hey, look, this is your window, and this is your door. You can go through both, but they provide great opportunities. So I really get excited about that. I was not a numbers guy in school. I hated numbers. But now, when you see the opportunity that knowing your numbers provides, it actually excites you because you know that translates to client satisfaction.

 Ellie:

 Exactly. But it’s looking at what those numbers represent, and its data points are people.

 James McLeod:

 That’s right.

 Ellie:

 People are what makes your products and your services. Without those data points, how are you going to improve?

James McLeod:

 That’s right.

 Ellie:

 So you would say you’re a data-driven organization then.

 James McLeod:

So, when you’re in social media marketing, you generally have two types of people on your team; they will stay within one of two categories. On the right side, these right-brained people, well, guess what? They are the people who will be a little bit more creative. They might be left-handed, such as me. I ain’t going to name any names.

 Ellie:

 No particularly.

 James McLeod:

But they’re going to be very creative, and they’re going to be worried, concerned, and caught up in all the aesthetics of some of the content and stuff you produce.

James McLeod:

 That’s great. But on the other side, you may have a lot of left-brained people, and they are so data-driven. They want to tell the logic behind the story. And what we have to understand is that there’s a convergence point. There’s a point where the logic introduces it, but the decision is driven by the emotion behind all that. So, the best way to make this as a story, and I may have to charge you for this little insight. Step one is to introduce a story. Okay. Mary had a little lamb. Her fleece was white as snow. Okay, that’s a good story. But now, what is the data behind it? Did you know that lambs owned by the woman Mary are 60% more likely to produce more wool than lambs owned by X, Y, and Z?

Now, I’ve merged both the left and right sides of your brain and culminated in being able to help your end user make a stronger buying decision.

 Ellie:

 Exactly. That’s what research is all about: combining the what and the why to better understand your customers. That’s what we do day in and day out.

 James McLeod:

 I got to give you a high five on that one, girl. You did a good job on that. You picked that up quicker than football.

All right, football.

 Ellie:

 Football fan. Then, of course, there is American football.

James McLeod:

 American NFL.

 Ellie:

 We’re going to have a problem here. So football is what you play with your feet, which is American soccer.

 James McLeod:

 Okay, I understand. Yes, there is a bit of disparity, but that’s also coming back to what we’re talking about. If I say football in America, we’re talking about the NFL and its major teams. But if I’m talking to a client that has a global audience, how are we going to be able to deviate and throw in that one particular word, American football versus soccer? Well, not soccer.

Football. Football.

 Ellie:

 Football.

James McLeod:

 Football. And also there are some people who get offended, Americans who get offended when we say football is the real sport. No, it’s not. But we have to understand what is the mindset that is behind the people who are receiving this message.

 Ellie:

 Absolutely. And I think it touches upon the important words of the day, empathy and authenticity.

 James McLeod:

 Yes.

 Ellie:

 I mean, there’s a lot of talk about it, but how do you stay authentic and truly engage with your customers?

 James McLeod:

 I think it comes down to what does my client or what do we value as a team? Do we value people being honest with their numbers? Of course we do. We don’t want to hyper fluff stuff, and we want to be authentic. In terms of what have we produced for previous clients? Have we produced strong numbers, poor numbers? Our agency isn’t the strongest with high-level design and aesthetics, but we are very good at being great storytellers. So we say, hey, look, when we approach a particular client whose brand we want to basically market for, we’ll say, hey, look, if you’ve got compelling stories that we can translate via social media, we’re the best team for you. But we’re not going to be out here just to chase a dollar. And we’re not comfortable talking about your message and translating your message.

And that’s what’s very important. And it’s important to be with other brands that feel that same way. Because if they’re moving into an uncomfortable space and starting to talk about things that they have no idea what they’re talking about, it’s going to translate on camera. It’s going to translate into how they speak about certain things. You’ll see that sometimes there have been historical case studies of brands missing the mark completely. I ain’t going to go into them because hopefully, they can be my clients someday. But we’ve seen them, and it’s like, what were you thinking? Well, you went into a space that was inauthentic to you. Maybe you didn’t have, you didn’t run your research. You didn’t do your research. You didn’t have the right people in a room to tell you, hey, look, man, this is a bad idea. You can’t say this around the market.

 James McLeod:

 You don’t market the New York Yankees into Boston, right? Do we have time for a quick story?

 Ellie:

 Absolutely.

So here’s an interesting story. My family actually owned a hamburger franchise.

Ellie:

 Okay?

 James McLeod:

 I’m from western New York. It is go Bills, go Sabres, and the rest of the world can keep spinning as long as those teams are first. This was a franchise that actually moved into the western New York market and on their packaging said the official brand. I don’t care if I throw them under the bus. It’s okay.

 Ellie:

 They’re cool.

 James McLeod:

 The official brand, the official sponsor of the Toronto Raptors. The Toronto Maple Leafs.

 Ellie:

 Wow.

 James McLeod:

 The Toronto Maple Leafs. And the soccer team. Football team. Excuse me. And everybody that was owned under MLSE.

Ellie:

 Right.

 James McLeod:

 Well, you’re doing this in a market that supports a completely different hockey team historically, right? So when they see this, the Immediate customer reflection is, well, why do I want to support you? And you’re supporting an out-of-market team? So we have to understand nuances like that are super important when you’re moving into a country, into a region that you’re not familiar with. If you are in Boston, you don’t support New York, and vice versa. If you are going Maple Leafs, then you don’t go into Sabres territory or any other territory that has a historic lead to it. Because the emotion that is tied to that is so deep. And let’s face it, we both know one of the strongest allegiances that people have across the board is to their sports team. Because why? That is their doggone tribe, of course.

 Where do you find your tribe? Like, where do you see, like, food? Food. Okay. All right. Come on. Let me in. Ellie, what are some of your favorite foods?

Ellie:

 I think I was talking to a lady earlier in terms of what brings people together. It’s how we dress, how we eat, what we eat. It builds communities. Right.

James McLeod:

 So for those of you who are listening on Spotify, all my favorite friends out there. Ellie has the sharpest navy blue. I think she was a stand-in at Suits or something like that with amazing red nail polish. And her hair is absolutely flawless. So make sure that you follow her. What’s your at right now, Ellie?

 Ellie:

 The elusive consumer.

 James McLeod:

 The elusive consumer.

Ellie:

 On Spotify and Apple. Let me just add that Saint looks fabulous with his orange glasses. So before we let you go, you touched upon a number of things that I want to dig deeper into. You mentioned storytelling capabilities in this era where everything is moving to technology and AI, that’s such an important skill to have. Right? To connect with your clients, with your consumers. What other skills or talents have you identified on your end that are going to survive this new era?

 James McLeod:

 Agility. Some people talk about strength. Some people talk about intelligence. It is your agility. How fluidly can you move from one particular point to the next? Because guess what? In today’s business economy, in any economy, period, you have to be able to move, pivot, and adjust to what’s going on. It’s like you have to be a cerebral contortionist.

 Ellie:

 Chameleon.

James McLeod:

 A chameleon? Yeah. You have to be able to adapt to those times and yes. As we talked about before, you do need to be able to still stay true to your core values.

 Ellie:

 But how do those core values still get, represented best in your society? Does that still reflect to everybody? We’ve had a lot of different pushes in terms of community activism, in terms of initiatives, in terms of people wanting to work from home.

James McLeod:

 So agility is what’s most important because that will allow you to adjust every single time. Granted, you may have a 200-person workforce that’s behind you, but if they’re not able to adapt, if they’re not able to change, and you are not nimble, especially in today’s workplace, it’s not going to happen.

 Ellie:

 Right.

 James McLeod:

 One of the key things that we’ve talked about, or they’ve talked about at the future festival is that employees will not be replaced by AI.

 Ellie:

 Right?

 James McLeod:

 Employees will be replaced by other employees who know how to maximize AI. Because there is a learning curve, let’s face it. But the good thing is that we all have the capacity to be great if we take the time to invest within ourselves. Ellie, I think you’re investing a lot into yourself. You out here, you’re grinding, girl.

 Ellie:

 It’s all about the hustling.

 James McLeod:

 Amen to that.

Ellie:

 Final question, unrelated to anything else, if you had to pick a theme song that plays every time you walk out, what would it be?

 James McLeod:

 I’m so glad you asked that because I ask myself that every time I see somebody get up and speak, and I’m like, what would I come out to? So there’s a song, a record by Pharaoh monk. It came out literally, like 1520 years ago, featuring Buster rhymes. It’s called get the f up. And it’s a remix of the Godzilla anthem. And it goes bump, bum bump. And I said that’s what I’m. Because I want people to get up. I want them to feel the power, and I want them to be able to receive all the energy that we’re going to be giving out and the great value that I’m going to present to people.

 Ellie:

 I love it. Saint, thank you so much.

 14:58

 It’s been a blessing. You are awesome. All right, one more. High five for the rope, and that’s it. Thank you so much.

 Intro:

 Up next, Ellie speaks with Arezu Azerbai from Trendhunter about event planning, emerging tech trends, and the role of AI.

 Ellie:

 All right. Hi, Arizu. Welcome to the elusive consumer. So lovely to have you.

Areizu Azerbai:

 Thank you so much.

 Areizu Azerbai:

 Hi.

 Areizu Azerbai:

 Thank you for having me.

 Ellie:

 It’s a pleasure. So you are with Trendhunter. I am the organizer behind this amazing event. Tell us a little bit about your role at Trendhunter for sure.

Areizu Azerbai:

 Yes, I’m a business developer representative here at Trendhunter, and I’ve been with them for more than one year now. So woohoo.

 Ellie:

 You’re enjoying it?

Areizu Azerbai:

 I am enjoying it very much. It has been a very beautiful journey for myself in my personal life as well as my career because I’ve learned a lot from emerging trends that we are offering our clients. So it is definitely impactful in my personal life as well.

Ellie:

 I was going to say the theme for this year is the year AI changes you. It’s such a dramatic sentence. What made you guys think of that and talk to us about that in terms of the planning ahead of this event, for sure.

 Areizu Azerbai:

 Yes. As you know, all the businesses are trying to keep up the pace with this journey. AIS is definitely the biggest thing right now and obviously, we want to make sure, as the largest trend-spotting platform in the world, to help our clients to stay on top of this emerging trend and try to help them to change accordingly. Don’t be afraid of AI. AI is definitely not there to harm us. It is definitely there to help us in our day to day roles in so many aspects. It can help us to simplify what we’re doing and save us a lot of time and other resources.

 Ellie:

 Right? Do you feel it’s helped you and your role at this company?

 Areizu Azerbai:

 Oh, yeah, for sure. So at Trend Hunter, we are definitely working on the culture of AI and basically embracing AI as something that is happening and we need to adapt to it. So it has been, I can tell you, six, seven months now that we have been working on so many AI applications in our day to day roles. Definitely, a lot of time-saving processes going on. I personally am really enjoying that. Leveraging a lot of AI tools in order to help us in our day to day roles and also help our clients to stay on top of the cutting edge trends.

 Ellie:

 That makes a lot of sense. I mean, we’re all excited to be here. It’s been fantastic so far. What part of this particular festival excites you the most?

 Areizu Azerbai:

 Oh, definitely the trend safaris. Well, basically all of it. I love future festivals the most. This is one of the most exciting events in my whole, entire life and I’m so grateful that I’m working with Trend Hunter and I get to experience this beautiful event. However, trend safaris are literally like bringing the trends to your life. We are going out and seeing the businesses that are living and breathing trends. So that is very impactful for our attendees. They can see after the keynotes that we are presenting on day one, definitely on day two, we are going outside of this seminar and going to different businesses that they actually broke that taboo and started to use the emerging trends, specifically AI, so they are not as scarce.

 Ellie:

 So we want to show everybody that this actually works and how amazing can be the experience of businesses out there when they’re leveraging AI for their day-to-day life.

 Ellie:

 And do you think that’s important also from a consumer point of view? So our podcast is all about how to reach the elusive consumers of today because consumer behavior has changed so dramatically over the years. Talking about the pandemic and the last few years now with AI, what are your thoughts there in terms of what AI can do for consumers and the end user?

 Areizu Azerbai:

 Yeah, for sure. So, as you know, with every chaos, changes are happening. Innovation comes up. So you know that after each chaos, a lot of opportunities are coming with it. And obviously, AI is one of the biggest ones. Even in my opinion, it’s even bigger than a pandemic because it’s something very new to so many people, of different age ranges. It’s not just about a specific Asia, like, not just Gen Z, that they are so used to technology and all of that. Even my parents and grandparents need to get used to that.

 Ellie:

 Right?

Areizu Azerbai:

 So that’s why it’s very important to help them understand and see how they are, basically, what is their perspective, how they would like, and how it’s easy for them to leverage AI in their day-to-day role and life. Not even role, like day-to-day life, because AI is changing our lives in so many different ways. And to be honest with you, we are here today basically to show people how AI is going to change our lives, not even only at our workplace, but in our personal lives as well. So it’s very important for us to see how people are reacting to that and how we can keep up the pace with people’s insights.

Ellie:

 Makes a lot of sense. You talked a lot about personal. Let’s talk about Arizu. Yes. What is your, why? What makes you wake up in the morning?

 Areizu Azerbai:

 Oh, my God. I am waking up every morning to learn, like, literally every morning. My main impression, my main excitement is to learn more and more. And obviously, this is the best opportunity for me, working with Trend Hunter. It’s such a high-speed company. We are every day, like, chasing the emerging trends. And what else can be better than this for me, honestly, I got my dream job, to be honest with you.

 Ellie:

 So wonderful. I’m so happy to hear that. Before we leave, is there anything you want to leave our listeners with? Any life motto, any key learnings that you’ve absorbed throughout your career or attending these events? Anything you want to say to our listeners?

Areizu Azerbai:

 For sure, even every chaos is a learning opportunity, so we never should give up. That is basically coming from a person who has a lot of ups and downs in her personal life. So what I can tell everyone is that every ups and downs of this life is a learning opportunity, a learning curve. So we just should keep going and try to be thirsty for knowledge. And knowledge basically brings that power that we are looking for.

 Ellie:

 That’s such a great motto to have. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it.

 Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us today.

Areizu Azerbai:

 Thank you so much.

 Ellie:

 Have a wonderful night.

 Areizu Azerbai:

 You too.

 Intro:

 Next up, Ellie talks to Auntie Heitenen from Op Lab, a division of Op Financial group in Finland about innovation in Scandinavia and understanding diverse customer needs.

 Ellie:

 Hi Auntie, Welcome to the elusive consumer here at the Future Festival.

 Auntie Heitanin:

 Thanks for having me. Awesome to be here.

Ellie:

 So is this your first time here?

 Auntie Heitanin:

 Yeah, it’s my first time in Toronto. It’s my first time at the future festival. And so far it’s been great.

 Ellie:

 Wonderful. Tell us a little bit about what you do, auntie.

 Auntie Heitanin:

 So I work for Op Lab, which is the innovation unit of Op Financial Group. Op Financial group is the largest bank as well as insurer in Finland. So we are the market leader in retail banking, insurance, and corporate banking. And what op lab does is accelerate innovation within the op group. So we like to say that we teach other people at OP how to fish, rather than bringing the fish to the table. So we arrange workshops, we do rapid experimentation, we do customer validation, customer engagement, and lots of different stuff. One also big area is emerging tech, and emerging trends, and that’s why we are here at the future festival.

 Ellie:

 So you live and breathe technology?

 Auntie Heitanin:

 Yes.

And you’ve been here before? It’s not your first time?

Ellie:

 No, it’s my first time.

 Ellie:

 So what brought you here? What was it that caught your attention?

 Auntie Heitanin:

 It’s a coincidence, to be honest. My colleague Franz, who is also here, happened to see were going through what events should we participate in this year. And obviously AI is a big theme that we are looking into. Trent Hunter and Future Festival came top of the list. And we’re like, yeah, we’re going there. Like, all the agenda looked great, sounded great, and, yeah, no regrets so far. It’s great to be here.

 Ellie:

 Right talk to us a little bit about your consumer strategy, if you could, in terms of your customer strategy and how you approach your customers and consumers.

 Auntie Heitanin:

 So again, being a financial group that is over 100 years old, we are like a banking cooperative. So we are owned by our customers. So that sets the foundation for the customer strategy. So taking it 2023, we still have 150 branch offices in a country that has 5 million people. And some might say that it’s very weird, but how OPC’s customer strategy is that we are a local player. Like, we have the local branch offices and they together comprise the whole thing, what we call the op financial group. And when it comes to innovation, it’s been a huge benefit to have very different kinds of, like, we have Helsinki, which is a big city in Finnish, like Finland terms, but then we have smaller cities in the north. And when we do, Op Lab collaboration with all of the big ones and the small ones.

 And it’s great to see the difference between those because they have different needs, and they have different approaches to doing customer like. Overall it’s different. So it’s a pretty interesting field to play in.

 Ellie:

 Absolutely. We were talking earlier about Scandinavia in general and innovation. It’s such a big hub of startups and technology. Why do you think that is?

 Auntie Heitanin:

 That’s actually a good question. I think there is obviously lots of talent. I come from a city called Olu. The origin Nokia was founded in Olu.

 Ellie:

 All right.

 Auntie Heitanin:

 So for example, in my city like Olu, when the Nokia Mobile business went south, it was definitely a hit to the local economy, but then it was also a blessing because now we can see lots of amazing startups. Amazing. Already scale-ups within the Olu-like northern area. One example is, for example, aura Ring like smart Ring company that was also founded in Olu.

 Ellie:

 I didn’t know that.

 Auntie Heitanin:

 So it’s like a very innovative place to be in. But I don’t know. It’s a great question, actually. I haven’t really thought about that too much.

 Ellie:

 No, I think it’s a cultural mindset thing as well. Growing up there, I saw a lot of that. People are hungry and curious.

 Auntie Heitanin:

 Exactly, yeah. And it’s also like we want to think that even though Finland is a small country, Finnish people are relatively tech-savvy. For example, mobile banking was introduced already back in 2000 and Finnish people are relatively early adopters when it comes to new tech. So it’s good like a sandbox to play in for startups to first try out stuff and then go abroad, like to Germany, UK, North America.

 Ellie:

 But also how the government emphasizes sustainability, technology, and innovation. I remember the fact that recycling was always a huge thing in Sweden growing up, and it’s very great to see that governments push that agenda. So, Auntie, I’ve held you long enough, but I do have one last very important question to ask you. If there was a theme song that played every time you walked on a stage, what would that be?

 Auntie Heitanin:

 Oh, wow. You got me off guard. Theme song. I have to say, this is an odd one. It is French classic le la Duko Nemara.

 Ellie:

 Well, I don’t know that one. You should listen to that. Look it up.

 Auntie Heitanin:

 It’s a very dramatic song, and I don’t even know why I know the song, but I know all the lyrics, and it’s such an oddball. I like to get people off the guard as well.

 Ellie:

 Like you just did too. Yeah.

Auntie Heitanin:

 I bet no one else has said le la Dukonimara during your interview.

 Ellie:

 I love that answer. Thank you so much, Auntie, for joining us. It’s been a pleasure.

 Auntie Heitanin:

 Yeah, thanks for having me. This was great.

Intro:

 Next up, Giselle shares insights on connecting with audiences through authentic storytelling and diversity at Warner Brothers.

Ellie:

 Hi, Giselle. Welcome to the elusive consumer here at the Future Festival.

 Giselle:

 Yes, it’s my first time attending, and I’m enjoying it. I was interested in attending because I work in culture insights, which is a discipline that I started at Warner that really looks at shifts in society, and what’s happening in culture. But then it’s rooted, obviously, in trends and understanding how trends are impacting different generations, how they’re impacting our fans, and what that means for the future.

 Ellie:

 What brought you to Warner Brothers to begin with?

Giselle:

 Yeah, I’ve always loved entertainment ever since I was a little kid. And I’ve always loved movies, specifically classic films. And I’m also a big fan. I actually just came from his hometown. I visited his hometown for the very first time. They had a festival this past weekend. So anyway, long story short, I just love entertainment and movies, and I’m a big believer in the power of storytelling how stories can be an agent for change, and how stories can influence people and their lives.

 Ellie:

 Absolutely. That’s such a great point. Storytelling is everything to connect with your audience in terms of connecting with your audience. We spoke a little bit earlier about diversity. I know that’s a topic that’s close to your heart. So tell us a little bit about how Warner Brothers are approaching that topic.

 Giselle:

 Yeah. So there are a few different initiatives. I can’t speak to them in detail, of course, but we’re making a concerted effort to make sure that productions so at that level, in terms of onset, and initiatives are being implemented. So whether that means crew members, whether it means behind the scenes, in terms of who’s in the writer’s room, there are really intentional efforts to bring more inclusivity and different points of view into those environments, but also the corporate environment too, in terms of those of us that work in the corporate space too, and that aren’t on the sets or aren’t off on locations somewhere. And I think a big piece of it is understanding that diversity, for me, a personal definition of it is the breadth of somebody’s life experiences.

 Yes, it includes some of these more traditional dimensions, like biological traits or things like gender orientation, so on and so forth. But my personal definition of it, too, is that it’s about the different life circumstances and experiences that really have shaped somebody’s identity and worldview at the same time.

Ellie:

 Right. That’s such an important point, especially in a market like North America, where without it you lose true representation.

 Giselle:

 Absolutely. I totally agree with, you know, I think it’s definitely a work in progress for anybody who is trying to implement de I in their organization. And I think a big part of it, too, is acknowledging that you’re not going to get it right the first time and that it’s a process, and you have to embrace that, I guess, fear of not getting it right because there’s no patent answer and every situation is different. And so I think that as long as the intention is there and it’s authentic and genuine, I think that can only help in pursuing the initiatives that will help get us to a better place.

 Ellie:

 Right. And a keyword you mentioned there was authenticity. How is Warner Brothers staying authentic?

 Giselle:

 That’s a really great question, because I think that’s a very challenging thing in any industry. But I think with, for instance, culture work and trying to tap into what’s happening and keeping a pulse on those things, research being very open to always learning and being curious, and even when it’s uncomfortable, even when you’re hearing things that you don’t want to hear, that’s how you grow and that’s how you stay authentic.

Ellie:

 Absolutely. Now let’s switch topic to technology innovation. The reason we’re here today. So this theme is the year AI changes you. What are your thoughts there?

 Giselle:

 Well, I came partly to kind of immerse myself because obviously in the work that I do, I’m reading so much about AI to the point that it’s just become very overwhelming right? And even here at the conference, you can feel a sense of feeling overwhelmed with all the information that’s being presented. And it’s great information. But I think that with AI, there needs to be this spirit of being open and just kind of also being open to taking it at your own pace and not being afraid of it and trying to understand how to apply it to what you’re doing and to your life. And I think something was mentioned yesterday about chaos. The chaos, like, embracing the chaos.

 And I took that as a takeaway for myself because I know I can feel a little overwhelmed, but it’s about breaking it down then. So, like, this is happening, try to understand it, take it at your own pace, and then see where it can best go. Again, something that was said today is to enhance your creativity and your productivity.

 Ellie:

 Right. One other thing that we’ve listened to today was the generational gaps and the differences in their reaction to AI and technology in general. How do you feel about that?

 Giselle:

 Well, I do a lot of generational work in my culture, insight work, and I do feel that I’m a proponent in looking at generations in a way where we can all learn from one another, where, yes, there are certain characteristics that definitely apply and represent each of the different generations, but at the same time, I think that we shouldn’t get boxed into thinking that if you’re a boomer, you’re not necessarily going to be embracing this. We’re seeing with TikTok, for instance, TikTok has become very democratized now in terms of who’s on there. You see a variety of different age groups on there and people of different backgrounds. So I think the same is going to happen with AI, to be honest with you.

 It’s just going to be very specialized in terms of what it means for you and where you are in your life, your career, and again, how it best can enhance your life.

Ellie:

 Right. And what about AI in terms of teams and cultures and getting buy-in from the different generations on your team? How do you handle that?

 Giselle:

 Yeah, I think that’s another area where it’s going to be a learning process, I think, because if you have a group that’s maybe a little bit more hesitant and reserved about it or fearful about it’s trying to first understand where are they coming from, really kind of understanding what are some of those factors driving why they’re feeling the way that they’re feeling, of course. And then working through that and not trying to sort of force anything on anybody. And as they say, meet somebody where they’re at. So if you again want to take something at a different pace, being open to that and understanding where maybe intergenerational teams can work together and collaborate within the context of AI in a way that works for everybody, that makes a lot of sense.

Ellie:

 I want to switch the topic to consumer behaviors. So we’ve seen after the pandemic, and obviously before the pandemic endured, that behaviors changed quite dramatically. In terms of the entertainment industry, what have you seen change and how are you preparing for the future for those changes?

 Giselle:

 Yeah, I think one of the main things, a few different things, is that we saw the role of entertainment change. Entertainment perhaps before the pandemic was maybe perceived as this frivolous thing or just this thing for leisure. But I think the role of it has really shifted. And you see that people are embracing it for all these different things now, whether it’s education or whether it’s advocacy, and using entertainment as a tool to promote messages. I’m a huge history lover.

 And with what’s happening in the US, with different legislation around academic curriculum, around our history, I really am passionate about the opportunity that this presents for entertainment to play a role, for instance, and fill that void where, for instance, kids growing up today that are going through grade school may not learn certain aspects of our culture, the good, bad and the ugly, and entertainment can play that role of exposing them to these things and exposing them not again to sort of with an agenda, but exposing them so that there’s understanding and that there’s awareness so that we can grow and learn from our mistakes as a country and as a people in terms of what has been done in the past. So I’m a big believer that entertainment can play that role.

 Ellie:

 I love that. That’s such an interesting aspect, entertainment as education. I think that’s often about. Yeah.

 Giselle:

 And I also think that from a family standpoint, the way that families are engaging in entertainment, particularly, for instance, we know that there were a lot of multigenerational households that emerged as a result of the pandemic. Now, in other cultures, that’s a norm. But I think for the majority of us households, that was a new thing because you had college students moving back home, but you also had families, older adults, who had families moving back home to get help with childcare from their parents. And so it created this interesting dynamic in terms of the multigenerational household and what that means now in terms of entertainment and who watches what, who picks what and kids influencing what their parents are getting into and vice versa. Parents influence what kids are into.

Ellie:

 So I think that’s here to stay in terms of this kind of cross-section of influences.

Giselle:

 So it’s actually bringing people closer and bringing families back together.

 Ellie:

 Agree. Definitely.

Ellie:

 Very nice. Let’s talk a little bit about trends in terms of trends that you’ve seen or transformative new technology or thoughts or ideas for the entertainment industry. Tell us a little bit about that.

 Giselle:

 Yeah, that’s a good question. I think that right now we’re in an interesting inflection point, if you will, because of, for instance, the strike that, thankfully, the writer strike that just ended, and AI. And what does that mean for writers and the future of content? Right. And I think that there is hopefully more of a focus on the emotion that comes from a human being able to tell a story and have that connection with so many different people. People. I often say that with research. It’s so fascinating to me how one person can be so complex and yet we’re trying to understand the mass, and yet the mass is comprised of individuals that in themselves are so complicated. So I think that’s really interesting.

 I also think that with trends in entertainment, there’s definitely, I think, a shift towards looking at entertainment, again in terms of well-being and wellness and what it can mean for mental health, what it can mean for, again, your holistic well being, and how it can play a role in that aspect of your life. So, again, similar to what I mentioned before is that it’s moved now, sort of maybe just leisure and this kind of frivolous thing to playing these different roles in people’s lives.

 Ellie:

 I love that. Well, Giselle, this has been such a pleasure. I have one last question completely unrelated to anything we’ve talked about that I ask all my guests. So if you had to pick a theme song that would play anytime you walked out, what would that be?

 Giselle:

 That’s a great question. My goodness, that’s an awesome question. So anytime I’m just starting my day and that song comes on. Oh, my word.

 Ellie:

 Wow. We’ve had everything from Eye of the Tiger, we’ve had Beyonce, we’ve had French songs, we’ve had pretty much everything.

Giselle:

 I’m going to say living on prayer because I was blasting that or, like, just singing that out loud last night where I was having dinner, and it just invigorated me. So I’m going to say living on a prayer because it speaks to how I start my day praying. But then also just the hope that you feel as you start a new day and sort of the anticipation and the aspirations you have for the day.

 Ellie:

 Fantastic answer, fantastic song, fantastic guests. Thank you so much.

 All right. Thank you so much.

 Intro:

 And finally, Luke Thomas, also known as the Earth Shaker, explains his passion for emerging tech and how HP is innovating for the future.

 Ellie:

 Hi, Luke, and welcome to the elusive consumer here at the Future Festival.

 Luke Thomas:

 Thank you for having me, Ellie, so.

 Ellie:

 Nice to have you. We’ve been talking throughout the few days that we’ve been here, and it’s been such a joy and pleasure to get to know you and learn about your passions and everything that you do. But tell our listeners, who is Luke and what does he do?

 Luke Thomas:

 Luke is the Earth shaker at. So, yeah, I’m a futurist as well at HP, and I talk about the latest tech trends and what the company needs to do moving forward. And I’m also a chief of staff for the CTO in HP as well as HP personal systems. So it’s a dual role. Just love the journey. The company is also going through a different patch and trying to move into services and products as well. So our organization, our team is actually helping towards moving towards that part. So it’s great, and it’s an adventure. So I love adventures.

 Ellie:

 Right.

Luke Thomas:

 I’m called the Earth Shaker because I like to move things and shake things up because that’s what all innovation is about.

 Ellie:

 Absolutely. We’re going to get to that Earth shaker in a moment. But tell us a little bit about a chief of staff to the CTO of HP. What does that involve?

 Luke Thomas:

 The chief of staff role is basically making the CTO look great in front of customers and leadership at the same time, prioritizing where she needs to spend time.

Ellie:

 Right.

 Luke Thomas:

 I’m also looking at very strategic projects as well. So trying to figure out, okay, how to get different teams aligned together, because you have to work with the business units, you have to work with leadership teams as well. So how do you get them all together? A lot of negotiations. So people think the chief of staff role is just about supporting just the CTO, but it’s more than that. So especially when you’re doing very high strategic projects, then you have to deal with a lot of people and influence them as well.

Ellie:

 Absolutely.

 Luke Thomas:

 So that’s one thing. And then the other thing is also making sure that my boss’s name is Helen Holder, so making sure that she’s talking at the right places with the right customers and prioritizing her time and her calendar as well with her EA, so making sure that she doesn’t spend too much time in doing things what I do. So I made her life a little bit easier. But yeah, it’s becoming a role that is becoming very resonating too much in the tech space now. I see this happening also in the banking industry, though I’m from Charlotte, I see that there’s a chief of staff role opening up there as well. So I think it’s great because time is precious. Not many folks, most of the Exeters don’t have that much time, so you can offload that to the chief of staff.

 So we’re kind of like shadowing the Exeters in a way and prioritizing their time and time spent attending conferences. Like what we’re doing here at the Future Festival and also making sure that we can get people, the leadership to execute those missions as well.

 Ellie:

 Right.

 Luke Thomas:

 So yeah, it’s a tough job, but someone’s got to do it.

 Ellie:

 Someone’s got to do it. So being a passionate person about innovation and change, and new technologies, are you also involved in your role to help find what’s next and help sort of prioritize which partners to collaborate with, which startups to fund, and so forth? Is that part of your role as well?

 Luke Thomas:

 Yeah. Well, in this role we work with HP Tech ventures, so I used to be a part of that team before. So we have an HP tech Ventures team. That team is focused on partnering and investing in startups. So this role is like whenever you look at any new innovations where we need to focus on, we go to that team. And that is my ex-boss, Andrew Barbell. I love you, Andrew. So we focus on that team and try to say, hey, this is where we want to look. I mean, everyone’s talking about AI right now. So how do you look at AI in the workforce space? So then we go to the HP tech ventures team. They look at all the startups, that are doing very unique stuff, and we partner with them.

 So we have that group dedicated, to doing all those kinds of things, and we get their insights, their advice, and then talk with the startups and figure out whether we need to partner or invest in them.

 Ellie:

 Right. So in terms of new, exciting technology for you personally, but also from HB’s perspective, can you give us some examples personally?

 Luke Thomas:

 Everyone knows I’m in the blockchain of crypto, right? I’m an XRP fan. So yeah, I’m actually very excited about this convergence of blockchain AI, and crypto and also the fact that there are more new business cases and opportunities coming about it. Right. I think in a way the pandemic has triggered a lot of things, especially with digital transformation. So it’s triggered with many organizations looking into it. And now with AI, I mean, AI has been there for a long time, right? But I think now with all the buzz that chat, GPT has come above with Gen AI, it’s creating that fact that every company needs to do something about it. So I think that’s great for the industry as a whole.

 Luke Thomas:

 And I think for me, I just love the fact that once we have regulations for the crypto industry, the growth is going to be more exponential because it’s coming to a point where we take things for granted. What I mean by that is today, for example, when you send money from the US to Canada or to India, it literally takes three days. Let’s say I’m sending $100. The bank would take at least $30 from my end for the transaction fee. So you’re left with $70 and then from the receiving end probably under $5. And that would come after three days. We have accepted that’s the norm.

 Ellie:

 Right.

 Luke Thomas:

 But with crypto, with what Ripple is doing, you can do real-time transactions for a fraction of a cent.

 Ellie:

 Wow.

Luke Thomas:

 So if my watchman in India says, hey, I want $10 to my bank account, can you wire it? I’ll say, no way, because the transaction fee is going to be $30. So I would say, hey, wait for your monthly salary and I’ll give you that money. So that has an impact on the GDP of a country as well, because of his willingness to spend that money, which now he has to wait for another 30 days. Right? So there are companies out there trying to disrupt various markets and industries. So I’m very passionate about this convergence of AI, blockchain, and crypto. I think we met one Metawars company yesterday and you were there as well, right? Time flies. So they were talking about. That’s the same thing, right? They’re being a big mall with 100 million were asking the same question.

 Luke Thomas:

 I don’t want to be in a 100 million sqft mall and then not figure out what to do. Right. And that’s a very good example of the convergence of crypto voice assistant with AI, NLP technology, and all that good stuff. And of course the metaverse world, right? So, yeah, metaverse, I don’t know, maybe went in a bit too early last year. But I think there’s a big fan of digital NFTs, nonfungible tokens. So Nike is doing a great job as well with that market. So, yeah, I mean, maybe paying thousands of millions of dollars for a board ape NFT might not be the thing to do, but I think digital NFTs are great, right? So if I get an autograph from you, Ellie, and later on in the future, you become a celeb. You are already a celebrity, but you become a celebrity.

 I’ll say, hey, I have an autograph from Ellie, and there’s no way you have an autograph from Ellie. But then I go and say, no, it’s actually she signed it off the blockchain, and I have that. Then I have a nice, cute 3d printed figurine of you, right? And there’s only five pieces of that. Maybe when someone buys it from me because I’m not a celeb, they say, okay, I’ll buy it for $100, but let’s say someone buys that figurine, let’s say Michael Jordan buys it, and suddenly that value just appreciates, right? So the good thing about that is because I was the original owner of that digital NFT, whatever transactions happen after that, I always get a commission. So I get like a 3%. And that’s what the guy was saying yesterday as well, right?

 So I was asking, what’s his business amount? He’s like 3% of the transaction, which is great compared to what people pay for the App Store, right? All the developers pay like 30%. Right? So when you say 30%, 3%. And that’s the beauty of the meta was, because it’s part of the, we are moving this transition from a web two world to a web three world. So I think once you have that in place and where the users have the power. Right. You’re seeing the user-generated content having so much dominance, especially with platforms like TikTok, of course. And how do you further enable them with all these user generated tools also and creative tools out there?

Ellie:

 Sure.

Luke Thomas:

 And I think that’s where in the future, I think everyone’s going to be an entrepreneur, of course, because they can leverage AI, blockchain, and whatnot. So I’m so excited about the use cases of crypto and blockchain because the moment you say crypto, everyone thinks about bitcoin, right? However there are several use cases. So I think especially in the future of finances, what’s going to happen is this is my belief that the governments are talking about central bank digital currencies, the CBDCs. So right now, you have electronic or digital money, but you can’t put anything on it, right? So right now, say, let’s say I give you some money and then Ellie, and then you say, hey, Luke, I will give you the money back when I have that money in my bank account. And I’m like, hey, it’s been two months. Where is she?

 Right. But in the future, I can put a contract and say that as long as you have that money in the bank account, you cannot even stop it. That money will automatically come to me. So this is great for landlords and all that stuff. So today, with the economy going up so high with inflation and all that stuff going on, a lot of folks are taking advantage of the system. So I remember when I was in California doing Covid, I think California tenants just needed paid like 30% of the rent, right? And people are playing the system, gaming the system because they knew they couldn’t be thrown out and it wouldn’t impact their credit score. But you could put a smart count saying, ” hey, look, if you have that money, come to me. If you don’t have the money, it’s fine.

 So these are just a few use cases. I think there are other use cases as well where when people die, like a lot of people died during COVID Right. So there was this inheritance of transfer of wealth and executing the will. All that is a lot of hassle. You had to go behind the banks, you had to go behind all the government agencies. But in the future, the moment the corporation council or whatever issues a debt certificate, then it executes a smart contract and that contract executes the will that will make sure that automatically all the money goes to respective people, what was mentioned in the bill. So just makes your life easy, like doing online payments today rather than signing the queue. So I think that’s the world you’re going to be in.

 And I think today I was just seeing the news that this crypto exchange called Kraken will now provide stock trading as well. So in the future, I think everything is going to be tokenized. You want to call it NFT or whatever, but everything will be tokenized. So what that means is I can buy an HP stock with my HP stock, I can buy a coffee, or I can buy a crypto. It doesn’t have to be always settling in whatever thing. So you can do atomic swaps. Probably in the future, they would. I don’t know how the governments are going to play it out because they want to always make you settle in their sovereign currency, fiat currency or a CBDC.

 But I think that’s the future we are moving into where you can just swap things; everything will have some value to attach to it.

 Ellie:

 Sure.

 Luke Thomas:

 And I think we are all waiting for regulations to come because once you have regulations, this whole market would probably go up like ten to 100 x.

Ellie:

 I was going to say you’re talking a lot about the efficiencies and the fact that this improves lives for the wider masses. But what about some of the risks involved? How do you control all of this and the restrictions? For instance, I know there’s a difference between open metaverse and closed metaverse and those limitations. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Luke Thomas:

 Yeah, sure. So for any new technology, right. There’s always risk involved, right? So I remember I come from a telecon domain, right? So when the smartphones came about, everyone’s excited about the cameras.

 Luke Thomas:

 Sure

 But again, people started doing a lot of funny things with the cameras as well, right? But at the same time, people also used cameras to become citizen journalists too, right? And then the selfies market was created by the users at the end of the day. So the same thing goes with the metawars as well. We are at the point wherein most of the stuff that you do in the metawers, the problem is people are still incorporating the web two models in the metawers. The metawers wants to be like a very much an open model, web three model, where the users have control of their avatars where they can. I have a ready player, me avatar, digital avatar, right. But then sometimes it cannot be easily put into different metaverse because the standards are not yet there, right.

 So once you have that interoperability between different metawars environments, I think that’s when things get very exciting and that takes time. We have had all those. There’s a reason why now the latest iPhones is supported USBC, right. It’s been there for a long time. So I think once the industry comes together, expecting that to happen overnight is next impossible. It’ll eventually happen. So I think the next couple of years we are still way away from web three metawars world. Sure. I would say we are in like the web two point x world, right? And I would say give it another five to ten years. An od, right? Yeah. People say no, web three is here. I don’t think so.

 Ellie:

 So for people who are novices in this space and we’re not quite sure where to start to educate ourselves to not only become more familiar with web three, with metaverse, with augmented reality, with crypto et, cetera, what advice would you give? Where should people start?

 Luke Thomas:

 Start with your phone. So that’s great. That’s a nice place to start. You can do a lot of things on the metaverse on the phone. You don’t need to use those headsets and buy those headsets so as to speak, right? So everyone thinks, okay, metaverse is all about being immersive and all that stuff. It’s an experience at the end of the day, right? So like how you see companies like Amazon, where you want to buy a sofa set before you buy it online, you want to see if it actually fits your house. And now you have all those tools to make sure that with AR VR, you can just position it using your phone and figure out, okay, it fits. You can do that with your phone today.

 So I think the same thing goes with the metaverse world or the crypto world is a, to educate yourself, what is going on. There’s a lot of guys out there, a lot of influencers also misleading people. So try to follow the right folks on Twitter. So I get all my news, normal news, crypto news, blockchain, even for some of my research. I get it all from, actually from TikTok and from Twitter. Because the problem is, by the time you read these white papers, it’s good for all these white papers. And nothing against all the technologies out there, but those are all published papers, and it’s already outdated. Things change so fast, right?

 So if you want to be up to that, up to date on all those news, I think Twitter is a great platform as long as you follow the right people, and then you take in those inputs and insights from them and then do an evaluation, say, does this guy make sense or not? And then brainstorm. There’s so many community conferences, and you can brainstorm with people who are all trying to empower the common man to be financially independent. That’s my goal at the end of the day, because at the end of the day, we are moving to a world which is very especially next generation. They are all digital natives, right? The first thing they do is play with a phone. That whole cycle of educating them has gone away for me as an Indian.

 I mean, if you go today and do any payments India, everyone’s doing through Google payments and Paytm and all that stuff. The reason is because they went through a pain when we had the demonetization going on india. So when that phase happened, it created a lot of pain, but people were still looking for a solution. And that’s how all these mobile payments everything’s digital india right now, but in the US, people, I still get some checks coming to my mailbox. So I think that’s the world we’re moving in, right? So people are not aware, okay, what’s going on in other parts of the world. So I think for a company like HP, right, it’s great for us to showcase some of our products and services in the metaverse, because we bought a lot of companies as well, like HyperX, we bought poly as well.

 So people, there’s only so much space that you can show everything across the world. But now people can go to the metaverse environment. They can see and play and touch and feel. So you have all those things right now to go ahead and experience it. And I think that’s the beauty of the metaverse, right. At the end of day, what’s the problem you’re trying to solve? You don’t have to do it all on a metawse. But then there are some experiences people don’t have. Like they want to buy a new laptop. Okay, great. Or a new monitor, right. For example, first thing you want to do is figure out if that monitor actually fits in your home, because the space might not be big, especially in metropolitan cities, like in Toronto, it’s, like, extremely expensive. So people are staying in small apartments or whatnot.

 So the last thing you want to have a big ass monitor, and next thing you know, it doesn’t fit on your wall. So I think those kind of experiences, you can provide and provide them with options as well, and also interact and engage with the community, because while you’re shopping, you want to ask someone, hey, dude, what do you think about this monitor? Right? So you can have and have those kind of experience in the metawars, which you don’t do online shopping. Right? So I think those are the challenges that can be overcome once you are in the metaverse, and it’s slowly getting there. So it’s a journey.

 Ellie:

 It is a journey. Yeah. I want to go back to your role at HP a little bit. Most of us, when we hear HP, will think printers and personal.

 Educate us a little bit about what else HP does that is in line with this AI era.

Luke Thomas:

 Yeah. So HP is beyond laptops and printers. I just want to put it out there. Right. We have bought amazing companies like Teradichi, Polly, Hyperx. So we are into gaming. We are into workforce collaboration services. We are trying to make the world a much better place. We believe in this mantra on hybrid work as well, because as you see, the house is becoming more and more a space to work, play, entertain yourself. How can HP be a part of that journey for everyone? Right? So I think data is getting very much personalized as well. So we place a lot of emphasis on security and making sure that we are not in a business of selling your data. That is not us. Right. So what we do is make sure that your data is secure.

 And we are a company that it’s credible that you can trust your data with because you’re doing all this stuff at home. Right. And what we are trying to do in the next phase is because of inflation and all these things going on. There are so many macros out there, right? So God forbid that oil prices cross $100 per barrel. It has an impact on the consumer electronics devices market. Right. There are things going on in China and in Taiwan. So all that has an impact on us and the inflation that’s going on right now. Right. So here we’re looking at how do we provide bundled services and a subscription services for all our products and services so people don’t have to feel the pain to do an upfront payment.

 So we are looking, listening to our customers as well, and we are trying to look at help them to come and create an environment where when they pick a laptop, they know, okay, this is the right headset or the mics and all these kind of stuff that goes along with it, which is optimized for the laptop that they buy and for the printers, too. Right. So instant ink is huge. I would highly recommend you all to get into instant ink. It’s not just a subscription model, it’s a great recommendation engine as well. And what it does is it gives you peace of mind. So it’s an auto replenishment model, wherein once it knows the levels of the in cartridges goes down, it automatically ships to you.

 Luke Thomas:

 The ink cartridges, you pay like $4 or $5 per month, and boom, it just comes to your thing so you don’t have to like, oh, my God, I forgot to buy my cartridges to print stuff. So I think those are the kind of areas where we have used AI for all that kind of services. So HP has been working on AI for a very long time. It’s just that the market is talking a lot about it now. So we’ve been doing it for a decade and oD.

 Ellie:

 Right. And your company is also, from what I know and personal experience, very user focused. You talked about listening to your customers and getting closing that feedback loop with your product teams. But how do you go about designing new products and services with the user in mind. So for instance, more accessible tools and more inclusive tools.

 Luke Thomas:

 Yeah, we have a great NPS score team. So they give us the inputs like what people want from the devices. And again, at the end of the mean though, we focus a lot on the design and how sexy needs to look at still people are still looking at can you give us more battery life, can you make it less heavy for us to go for conferences and all that. So I think there are all these other things that we look at, like can you make it affordable? And all that good stuff is there.

 Ellie:

 Sure.

Luke Thomas:

 But end of the day, if you can give a laptop which lasts for three days without battery, oh my God. So those are the things which we are focusing on, trying to figure out how we can offload that compute. Because now with all this AI data models going on, it takes a lot of juice from your laptops, right? So you need to have it always on. So we are looking at ways how do you can offload that compute onto the edge services and then have a more better user experience on those laptops as well. So speaking with the design teams, speaking with the user experience teams, the business units, because we have something called long term planning as well. So we figure out okay, what’s the plan for the next twelve to 18 months?

 And then my team is looking at things beyond that as well. So having that alignment, what I do in the future and those future trends need to align to what we’re doing right now as well. And educating our salesforce, right. Saying that hey, these are the things that’s going out right now because they need to channel that out to their customers at the end of the day. So we have a beautiful customer experience center in Palo Alto and Houston. Please do join and please do come. Always invited. So just to get our customers to know what’s going on over there, right. And see what the experience is like with the 3d printer, right? So a lot many people know that we have, this is one of our incubations which now has come called HX 3D. This is 3d printed keycaps. So it’s cute.

 Cozy cats was the first one. Especially markets like in Asia and all they like to personalize, as you can see. I love personalizing my things as well with all these funny t shirts and whatnot. So people like to personalize, be unique, right? And I have my personalized mustache as well. So I think people like to be standing out and especially when you have your laptop or a gaming, especially gamers, they just want to be unique. They are not like when you go to the gaming room if no one says, wow, what a setup. That is a huge disappoint for them.

 Ellie:

 Right?

 Luke Thomas:

 So everyone’s focused on lighting, the furniture, the tables, the chair, apart from just so we are looking at all those aspects as well and creating. And again, when you kill somebody, then you have the red effect and all that stuff. So lighting plays a big role as well. So I think that is the kind of experience we are focused on, which traditionally, in the past, we’re like, hey, we just focus on the laptop, don’t focus on anything else. But now I think it’s a whole new experience as well.

 Ellie:

 Sure.

 Luke Thomas:

 So I think we have all these devices right now. It’s about how do you take advantage of these devices, even for notifications, right? Because these have all these RGB lights. Let’s say I’m playing too much of Minecraft or whatever, right? And then my lights go red because my mom is calling me up. So I need to pick up that phone call because I’m too immersed in the game. So those very subtle things, we can figure it out right now. We don’t have to do, like, crazy things little by little. Right? And those are the little things that really impact the users experience at the end of day.

 Ellie:

 Absolutely. And that’s such an important point. Anything from ergonomics to the look and feel of these devices, so much thought and effort and research are put into coming up with that I think a lot of people forget about. So we appreciate it. And one last question for you, Luke, before I let you go.

Luke Thomas:

 All right.

Ellie:

 If there was a theme song that would play every time you walked out, what would that song be?

Luke Thomas:

 Theme song. I’m into trance music, Technotrans. It’s only music, so there’s no language. But I sing the song sometimes when things don’t go my way, which is. Give me hope, Joanna give me hope, Joanna. So that’s my kind of song. Inspiration song every day.

 Ellie:

 I love it. Mr. Earth Shaker. Thank you so much, Luke, for joining.

 Luke Thomas:

 Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

 Ellie:

 Thank you. And that’s a wrap.

The post Ep. 8 – Voices of Visionaries — The Future Festival Edition, Part 2. appeared first on Kadence.

Transcript

Welcome to the Elusive Consumer. Today, Ellie is recording live from Future Festival in Toronto. She’s speaking with multiple guests, including Melissa Austria from Got Style, Fareed Farouk from Dubai World Trade Center, Oscar Mesa from Kappel Group, Raj Aurora from Just Funky, and Stephen Hellman from the foodies group. In this first interview, Ellie speaks with Melissa Austria about fashion, retail, and how the pandemic has impacted men’s fashion and dressing habits. 

Ellie:
Welcome to the elusive consumer. Melissa from Gott style. 

Melissa:
Thank you so much. 

Ellie:
So good to have you here today at the future festival. What are your thoughts? 

Melissa:
Whenever I hear about new technology, it always blows my mind. And then it’s like, okay, how can I use that in a practical sense in our business to make our customers’ lives better? 

Ellie:
Right. That’s a great way to think. I was noticing there on your lanyard that it says dress better, do better. Yes. Tell us about that. 

Melissa:
Well, we’re retail, but more specifically, we have women’s, but we’re definitely skewed towards men. 

Ellie:
Okay. 

Melissa:
And I feel that men, especially after Covid, are definitely the ones that need to learn that you can’t slide into this slobification that’s happening right now. 

Ellie:
Tell me about it. 

Melissa:
And we need to start dressing better to do better. 

Ellie:
I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Could you just talk to every man out there across generations? 

Melissa:
Exactly. Yeah. It’s getting bad, and we need to bring it back again to how it should be. Men need to start dressing like men and not like frat boys anymore. 

Ellie:
I love it. So what’s your role at the organization? 

Melissa:
Oh, I’m the owner and founder of the business. 

Ellie:
What made you think of this idea? 

Melissa:
Of the name or the business idea in general? Again, it’s strictly finding a problem and trying to solve it. So we’ve been around for 18 years. 

Ellie:
Wow. 

Melissa:
So a long time. Wow. So when I first started in the business again, it was at a stage where men dressed like crap. So it was all boxy three-button suits, pleated pants, Eddie Hardy t-shirts, and true religion jeans. 

Ellie:
Right. 

Melissa:
So as a woman, I was tired of men looking like this because I was working for a company where we did a lot of Danish and Scandinavian brands. 

Ellie:
Oh, nice. 

Melissa:
So I was heading over to Denmark and Sweden all the time. 

Ellie:
Right. 

Melissa:
Seeing how men were dressed and was like, why can’t men in Toronto dress like this? 

Ellie:
Such a big difference. I grew up in Sweden, so I understand perfectly. 

Ellie:
Like, when you came here, you’re like, what happened? What happened? 

Ellie:
What happened here? What went wrong? I’m sorry. Toronto. 

Melissa:
Yes. And the rest of North America. Really? 

Ellie:
Right? Absolutely. 

Melissa:
Like the US is just as bad, if not worse. 

Ellie:
I actually live in the San Francisco Bay area, where I am not used to the relaxed West Coast approach. As much as I thought I would enjoy it. I do miss the suits of London. 

Ellie:
I know. So you founded this organization? Was it 18 years ago? 

Melissa:
18 years. 

Ellie:
Wow. And then, how have times changed? How has consumer behavior changed throughout that period? 

Melissa:
It’s so funny because obviously being at a trend show talking about technology, it’s more. As things grow faster, there’s more to a return to the old-fashioned way. I’m finding that my customers really do want that high-touch, high-service world, but it’s trying to use technology to make it faster and easier for them. But with people saying that retail is dead, everyone wants to shop online. I disagree with that. I think people still want to shop in the store, but it’s about the experience. We do a ton of parties, and tons of events to try to build that community within our store. 

Ellie:
Right. There was a lot of talk about that, and we touched upon that earlier. That building a community with your customers. How are you finding that, and how do you do that? Through marketing and through social media. Talk us through that. 

Melissa:
It’s a combination of both. But the best way is from when myself or my team are on the sales floor, and they’re building that connection with the customer. So when we do events, we can target them directly to them. So we’ve done single events, we’ve done big parties, we’ve done more niche dinners, we did a godfather-themed dinner that had a murder mystery. I love that happening. 

Ellie:
That sounds like a lot of fun. 

Melissa:
So, just different things that since we know our customer now, it’s a matter of getting those data points, putting them into a program, and then using AI and CRM to pull that up so we don’t have to mentally think about it all the time. But getting that down to that niche level of what our customers want. 

Ellie:
Right. So it sounds like you’re incredibly data-driven, and you use that data to create better products and services. 

Melissa:
We are getting better at it. I think the biggest issue is that all companies have so much data, and we don’t know what to do with it. 

Ellie:
Right. 

Melissa:
But I can see the practical applications now with AI that I don’t need to have a programmer to figure this out. If I can use the right prompts, I can get AI to put together some different categories of my customers. 

Ellie:
For me, that makes sense. So you’re finding this festival helpful and useful for you and your industry? 

Melissa:
I think if you’re not learning and not growing, no matter what industry you’re in, then you’re going to be left behind. 

Ellie:
Absolutely. Melissa, I have a couple of fun questions to ask you. Okay, bear with me. Let’s see. Which one should we pick here? If there was a Netflix series made about your life, what would it be called? Who would play you and why? 

Melissa:
Who? Definitely being around for 18 years, there’s been a lot of ups and downs. I think, as an entrepreneur, if you’re not bankrupt at least once and you’re not successful. 

Ellie:
Right. It’s all about failing to succeed. 

Melissa:
Yeah. The name of it would be. I think it would be. We actually talked with my staff about trying to do a reality show, because I don’t think people understand what goes into retail. There’s so much back-end work. My team has their own personalities, so we definitely have talked about doing our own reality show because it’s like also making over the customers, having that in the show as well, and sort of telling about their story, because it’s amazing how clothing can transform somebody. So something along that line about a new type of queer eye for this. 

Ellie:
Straight guy, I love it. 

Melissa:
With kind of our staff being at the forefront of it. 

Ellie:
That’s a brilliant idea. You touched on something that’s actually quite important. You mentioned how clothing can transform an individual, which is something I think a lot of people forget. So there have been talks about clothing and how you dress and mental health, especially during the pandemic, people were working from home, potentially not dressing up, not going to an office, or not needing to dress up. And there was a study that showed that had an impact on their health and how they viewed themselves. And there was a note that even something as simple as putting on a bit of perfume could heighten your day. What are your thoughts there? 

Melissa:
Well, for me, I did a lot of Zoom calls just because trying to always learn about new technology and stuff. And it was so funny how at the beginning of the pandemic, people made an effort, and then towards the end, I would have calls with people for women, no makeup, and, like, a top bun looked like they just rolled out of bed. And I totally agree. There’s something about that aspect of getting up in the morning, having a shower, putting on clothes, and going to work. 

Ellie:
Right. 

Melissa:
I think if you were at home, you still have to do a little bit of that. Still have a shower, put on different clothes versus the ones that you just woke up. 

Ellie:
People shower. Exactly. 

Melissa:
But I can 100% see with people that I know that just work from home how they really kind of went crazy once the world opened up again, or they went the opposite way and they have become a hermit. 

Ellie:
Right. 

Melissa:
And they’re not leaving their house. So I can definitely see that 100% affects your mental health, right? For sure. 

Ellie:
Okay, from a serious to a more fun topic. Again, one last fun question. Okay, let’s see. If you had to trade places with another person, who would it be and why? 

Melissa:
That’s a hard one. 

Ellie:
I got to think of it. Take a sip and think about it. 

Melissa:
I think one person would, in a weird way, would be Elon Musk only because he’s so polarising and so smart at the same time. 

Ellie:
Such an incredibly intelligent person, but also. 

Melissa:
Rubs people the wrong way. So I think it’d be kind of fun to be in his shoes for a while, to see how his brain for a while, not forever. 

Ellie:
I love it. Well, thank you so much, Melissa, for taking the time. It’s been a pleasure to have you. 

Melissa:
Perfect. Cheers. 

Ellie:
Cheers. 

Melissa:
Next, Ellie talks with Fareed Farouk from Dubai World Trade Center about event venues and conferences and how AI can enhance customer experiences. 

Ellie:
Hi, Fareed. Welcome to the elusive consumer. We’re so happy to have you with us today here at the Future Festival. 

Fareed:
Hi, Ellie. I’m really thrilled to do this podcast. I like to be at the future festival. It gives you really a taste of what’s going to happen in life, what’s going to happen with technology, and how is it going to have an impact on every aspect of our lives? 

Ellie:
Talk to us about what you do, Fareed. 

Fareed:
I work at the Dubai World Trade Center. We are an exhibition and conference venue. We organize events ourselves. This is one of our main businesses in Dubai. We host big shows like, we host one of the biggest technology shows worldwide, and the biggest food show worldwide. Millions of visitors come to our venue every year. 

Ellie:
That sounds great. And what brings you to the US beyond this festival, or Canada, rather? 

Fareed:
I mean, I’ve been to this festival five years ago. I found it really eye-opening to see what’s happening in the world. Besides, you tend to really network with great minds here. That’s something you don’t get if you really look at a speech online. So you network with people, talk to them, see their aspirations, and how they are utilizing technology in their workplace. And it’s really something I look forward to doing from time to time. 

Ellie:
So you mentioned technology and the theme of this year is the year AI changes you. Tell us how you are currently using AI in your business. 

Fareed:
See, we are in the business of hosting people to come for events, and service comes at the top. Priorities for what we do. Customer experience is important. We are planning to utilize AI to provide better customer experience, to provide better content for our visitors, and also provide ease of productivity and efficiency for our staff to be able to do their job better. And that means we will serve the customers better. 

Ellie:
So it excites you. This new era is not frightening, but rather exciting for you. 

Fareed:
I mean, every era has its new trends coming up. We have no choice. We can either make two choices here. Either we become pessimistic about it and worry about what’s going to happen to our job, what’s going to happen to the world and so on, or forget about that, put that aside, and look at it positively. How it’s going to make our life better, how it’s going to make our work better, and so on. So I tend to really look at the positive side. I’m not claiming I’m a really optimistic person, which I try to be, but you have no choice but to look at the positive side of these things. 

Ellie:
Okay, I have one last question for you, Fareed, and it’s a little bit different. I ask this of all my guests. If there was a theme song that would play every time you walked out, what song would that be for you? It can be any song. 

Fareed:
I was so ready for all your questions today, except for this one. 

Fareed:
I kind of like boxing. 

Ellie:
Okay. 

Fareed:
Whenever one of my favorite boxers comes inside, there are certain songs playing and that song really increases your adrenaline power and so on. So, I mean, there is no specific song, but one of my favourite movies is Tiger. 

Ellie:
Yes. 

Fareed:
So let’s say that. 

Ellie:
Wonderful. It’s been a pleasure having you on our show. Thank you for joining Fari. 

Fareed:
Likewise. 

Ellie:
I enjoyed talking to you. 

Fareed:
Take care. 

Ellie:
Bye bye. 

And up next, Ellie speaks with Oscar Mesa to discuss understanding local consumers and embracing innovation. 

Ellie:
Hi, Oscar, and welcome to the elusive consumer here at the future festival. Thank you so much. 

Oscar:
Thank you so much for the invitation. 

Ellie:
What brings you here? What brings you to the festival? 

Oscar:
Well, we are looking for new trends in our company, and we are eager to see what is happening today in the retail world. That’s why we are here. 

Ellie:
Right. And you’re with couple. Tell us a little bit about your organization. 

Oscar:
Yeah, for sure. Couple Group is a retail and financial services store in Mexico, we have a wide range of products and services around the country. We have operations in Argentina also, and we basically are serving the massive consumers in Mexico. So we have more than 15 million customers in Mexico. We gave them credit to purchase products, and also we have a bank and a pension fund. So we are large. 

Ellie:
I understand. And what is the difference between consumers, do you think, in Mexico and here in the United States, what would you say is the main difference? 

Oscar:
Well, that’s a difficult question. I guess every consumer is different in every country. We are trying to fulfil their needs. And in the case of Mexico, in the case of the consumer that we are targeting, we are basically just to fulfill their needs and desires today. So basically, we try to make a better life for them, bringing them the basic stuff like furniture, clothing, and also access to credit. So I will say that, of course, we are closer to the United States, but in terms of Abbott, we are very different. 

Ellie:
Makes sense in terms of trying to understand those consumers and customers of yours. How do you do that? Do you conduct any research? How do you approach it? And do you use any technology for that? 

Oscar:
Yeah, we have different ways of approaching our customers. In the case of the team I run, which is the innovation team, we have a lot of consumer-centric methodologies. We are trying to be very close with our customers. We use design, thinking, service, and design. We have a lot of hours of interviews being in their homes and in the store. So basically, we are gathering all information directly from them. And that information, we try to put it to find the job to be done with them and also to create new solutions for our customers. So basically, we are together with our customers in the things that we are creating. 

Ellie:
That’s brilliant. You need to stay close to them to be able to better service them. Right? 

Oscar:
Exactly. That’s what we are aiming for. 

Ellie:
Brilliant. And in terms of staying close to your customers, this festival is all about trying to engage better with your customers in the future. How do you feel in your industry about everything that’s going on with AI and new innovation in your space at the moment and what that might do for your vertical? 

Oscar:
I mean, it’s a lot of information. I was talking with my partner, who is also here, that it’s a lot of information to digest, but we need to start, we need to figure out, how to use all these trends in AI, how to embrace it, and make it very clear for our customer. As I told you, we are very focused on the low-income consumer in Mexico. So all this kind of technology can help us to try to iterate and maybe find a way to make it useful for us and for the consumer. But the main lesson for us is to embrace it, try it, and iterate as we learn. 

Ellie:
That makes a lot of sense. Is there any particular technology that you’ve seen that you think is going to be very helpful for you beyond the AI tools? 

Oscar:
Well, of course, we are very focused on data. So basically all the algorithms, machine learning, and deep learning for us is very important. We are also trying new projects regarding proximity services in our store. We are trying to use computer AI to do some tests. So we are eager to try anything in order to fulfill the consumer needs. 

Ellie:
Makes sense. So let’s talk a little bit about Oscar. What is it that drives you? What is it that makes you wake up in the morning? What’s your why? 

Oscar:
Well, of course, my family, but talking about the work, I always talk to my people that you need to have passion for winning and every day there is a new option for us. I’m always talking to them and saying, you should imagine that you are in a jungle and you have a knife in your mind and you should go for it and make things happen. So that is driving me every day. And the motivation to make things happen because our general manager is requiring us from the innovation team, I guess that is absolutely. 

Ellie:
I think Jeremy here from Trend Hunter had a book about hunters versus farmers. So sounds like you’re a hunter then. Yeah, I guess very much so. Okay, I’m not going to keep you much, but I have a couple of fun questions that I want to ask. 

Oscar:
Okay. 

Ellie:
This has nothing to do with innovation, but let’s see what you think here. So apart from your own brand, which brand are you fiercely loyal to and why? 

Oscar:
I’m a Pepsi fan and I know that the innovation head of PepsiCo was here, but I’m a Pepsi fan. 

Ellie:
So, can you tell the difference between a Pepsi and a Coke if we did a taste test? 

Oscar:
Yeah, for me, it’s more sweet. 

Ellie:
Can you tell the difference? 

Oscar:
Yeah, I can tell it’s sweeter and for me, it’s very tasty. 

Ellie:
Okay. I’ve actually heard that soft drinks in Mexico taste differently than in the US. 

Oscar:
Maybe because of the water. 

Ellie:
I guess that makes sense. Okay, a couple more for you. So if there was a theme song that was played every time you entered a room, what would that be? 

Oscar:
Wow. In Mexico, there is a lot of regional music, but in my case, it will be something called banda, which is regional music from the northwest of Mexico. I guess Banda will be great. 

Ellie:
Very nice. 

Oscar:
Nothing similar to Taylor Swift or anything like that. 

Oscar:
Sorry, no Taylor Swift fan. Who’s here. 

Ellie:
Well, Oscar, before we go, is there anything you want to say to our listeners today? Is there any motto that you have? Is there anything you want to emphasize? 

Oscar:
Well, I will say that from my personal experience, the basis of success is to trust in your team and develop your team. So I will encourage anyone who is listening to this podcast to develop their team. Don’t hesitate to develop your team because they are the base of your results. 

Ellie:
Absolutely. Culture is everything. I fully agree. Thank you so much for joining us today. Oscar, it’s been a pleasure. 

Oscar:
Thank you so much. 

Ellie:
Take care. 

Up next, Stephen Hellman from the foodies group discusses all things food events, trends, storytelling, and community building through shared food experiences. 

Ellie:
Stephen. And welcome so much to the elusive consumer here at the future festival. So happy to have you. 

Stephen:
Oh, it’s great to be here. Thank you so much. 

Ellie:
So tell us a little bit about your role and company and what brings you here today. 

Stephen:
Sure. 

Stephen:
So I have a company called the Foodies Group, which does pretty much everything food-related, from, corporate events to public events, festivals, marketing, PR consulting, you name it. And I’m here at the Future Festival. We actually work with you, Teresa, to put together a trend safari every year to highlight what is innovating in food. And I love just coming to the festival to learn all about innovation and what to expect in the year ahead. 

Ellie:
That sounds great. But tell us a little bit about food innovation. I can’t quite put the dots together there. What does that mean? 

Stephen:
Yeah, innovation in food. I mean, it’s so multifaceted right now. When you kind of. Kind of look at what’s happening in food, robotics obviously plays such a big role in everything from food production to manufacturing to actually even the deliverability of food. 

Ellie:
Right. 

Stephen:
But then also things like storytelling. Right. Like interactive experiences. That’s all part of what’s trending as well. Being able to share food, tell their story, and find creative ways to do that. As situations continue to evolve, that all makes sense. 

Ellie:
But do you find that consumers are open to all of these new experiences, or are they a bit hesitant? 

Stephen:
Yeah, that’s a good question. You know what? I do find them open to everybody, obviously, to a different degree. Right. And it’s almost like the more you learn and the more knowledge you have, the more you want to learn. So even when we do events, we don’t kind of come out hard and expect people to become experts after attending an event for one day. But it’s just to start to get that knowledge and get them to view things in a different way. Right. So whether it’s a chocolate tasting, just getting, again, maybe a little bit of a basic of understanding how chocolate is produced, where it actually comes from, again, without overwhelming and still allowing you to enjoy that experience. 

Stephen:
And then again, once you kind of start to open yourself up, if it’s something that’s of interest to you, tend to delve in a lot deeper. Right. 

Ellie:
So that makes sense. But talk to us a little bit about not just any consumer but the elusive consumer. 

Ellie:
So, if you were to classify in your industry, if there’s a particular group of consumers that are elusive to you and your business, is there any particular group that you can identify there? Any demographics, any age group, any sort of ethnic minorities, or anything that you can talk us through? 

Stephen:
Yeah, that’s interesting. So I mean, in terms of elusive consumers, for my business, I would probably say it’s people who don’t maybe have the knowledge or want to understand. Right. They see food as something you need to have, you need to eat in a day, but they don’t necessarily care about it. Right. Or don’t delve really deep into it or have an understanding. Maybe just kind of see it as fuel and nothing more. So that maybe is kind of a little bit of the elusive consumer because somebody like that wouldn’t necessarily gravitate to what we do because there is more of a sort storytelling element or more of kind of like an interactive element, and maybe they don’t want to delve that deep into it. 

Ellie:
That makes sense. 

Stephen:
Yeah. 

Ellie:
I want to talk a little bit more about Stephen. Okay, so before you got into food, what were you doing? 

Stephen:
I was in business development, actually. So I worked for a series of different companies, everything from entertainment to law firms to concessions, like, you name it, to carpet stores. Right. And I’ve always been interested in developing businesses and in storytelling and in really getting those messages out. So when I saw that you could do that over a series of different things, I wanted to find my passion. And coming from, like, an Italian background, food was always at the center of everything that we did. And as Toronto’s food scene was starting to emerge and become something, I wanted to be a part of that, and I wanted to tell the story of food here in the city. And so I launched the Foodies group, and now it’s been eleven years. 

Ellie:
Wow. 

Stephen:
Yeah. The rest is history. 

Stephen:
Speaking of Italian food, we’ve had some excellent Italian food here in Toronto. I didn’t realize that Toronto is such a diverse, multicultural pot of various types of consumers. 

Ellie:
Oh, for sure, yeah. 

Ellie:
Talk to us a little bit about diversity as well because that’s an important topic that we hear throughout every industry: how to reach various types of audiences. Is that a problem that you guys encounter at all? 

Stephen:
You know, it’s funny. I think we’re fortunate in food, in that food is the great unifier, and food allows you to tell stories of culture through food, which can be a shared experience. Right, right. But I think that’s one of the things, especially in Toronto. So the more, you know, there’s phenomenal food all over the world. Right. But one of the things I really do notice about Toronto is the blending of cultures in our food and how that’s represented. And we have such unique dynamics here in the city that bring together all the different cultures like you said, that exist here in Toronto. 

Stephen:
And even within knowing a chef who might be like Filipino and Jamaican or something, and bringing those two different elements together to cuisine, it’s fascinating to see that in Toronto and to be able to tell the story of culture through food kind of. 

Ellie:
Nice. One other topic that I want to touch upon that they covered in some of the speaking slots earlier this morning was about the fear of the new. Right. How do you feel about that as a professional in this new era of AI? What are your thoughts? 

Stephen:
Yeah, that’s a very loaded question. There’s a lot, right? People tend to. Yes, as you said, I generally fear the unknown. Right. They always think of, like, the worst-case scenario, what it can become. You’re talking AI, our overlords coming to rule us. But as per anything, one of the things I’ve learned from this conference is really, it’s innovate or die. Right? And businesses that don’t innovate, that don’t adapt tend to be left by the side. And so it is incredibly important to understand that not everything is for everyone like you do need to. Certain elements may be kind of come into a certain business more than others. But innovation is key. And even with us in the eleven years, the company has continued always to evolve and innovate. 

Ellie:
And that’s what’s kept us alive through times like Covid, the little lulls, and all the changes happening. We’re not what we were eleven years ago. And so coming even to this festival every year and learning and seeing where things are going and in what direction can help your business so greatly. 

Ellie;
You mentioned something there that’s a lot on people’s minds these days in terms of the pandemic. How has that changed consumer behavior for you and your industry? 

Stephen:
Yeah, to me, it’s sheer turmoil. That’s the best way to put it. It has changed so fast and so often over the last few years. And that’s been the most difficult going through the stage where, again, people can’t get together, and all of a sudden, everything’s virtual, then people can get back together, but there’s still a hesitancy for some people. And so we’ve had to create such unique programming to really hit on every level from virtual right through to people wanting to get back together and have big group outings and everything in between. So the evolution, I would say, over the last few years has probably been the greatest it’s ever been. But it’s exciting. It keeps things exhilarating. It keeps you on your toes. Now, again, post-pandemic people do want to start to reconnect, but again, there’s still sometimes that hesitancy. 

Ellie:
So, you have to have a lot of different contingencies in place. 

Ellie:
Absolutely. And I like what you mentioned there because it brings me back to what they spoke about earlier. In the sense that people long for that sense of community, right? Whether it’s in entertainment, retail, or food, how do you create that sense of community beyond obviously gathering around a meal, which is great, but how do you try to embed that with your customers? 

Stephen:
Yeah, that’s a good question. I think, again, like bringing certain types of customers together for different experiences. So one is we provide a very diverse range of different experiences and something that kind of touches. So again, if sustainability is important to you. Right. Bringing together events that touch on people who want to learn more about sustainability and practices in farming and such, and others who, again, maybe don’t want to learn as much but still want to have that sense of community. So, bringing them together for something as simple as a chocolate or cheese tasting or something accessible to everyone. Right? 

Ellie:
Sure. 

Stephen:
So, really, it’s, I think, diversifying and doing things in a lot of different categories that touch on different consumers. 

Ellie;
That’s an excellent point. I appreciate it. Before we let you go, and I appreciate you taking the time, I wanted to ask some of our more fun questions that we’ve written down if you bear with me a few moments here. All right, I’m going to pick a couple of these. So if you had the power to bring back one decade from the past, like, the event that you’d have to live in and the rest of us with you, what would it be and why? 

Stephen:
Oh, you know what? I haven’t been born long enough to go back to some of these decades. But honestly, it’s funny. We romanticize it, but it is like the roaring 20s, right? Because that was that age of kind of excess again, partying, getting people out. And after Covid, that generation is needed more than ever again. 

Ellie:
Good one. Okay, I’ve got one more for you. If you could eliminate one social media channel forever, which would you choose? And again, why? 

Stephen:
Oh, my gosh. Okay, you know what? This question is going to get me in trouble. Can I say all of them? 

Ellie:
Right? 

Stephen:
Because you know what? I just feel like we’re living in, again, part of even what we do. We’re living in such a disconnected world where it’s enough to just kind of sit on social media. Look, feel that you don’t belong, feel that you’re missing out on things. And I think that’s so destructive. And then it also deters people after a while from actually going out and doing things again. So, to me, I’m big on getting rid of all and having real connections again, as crazy as that sounds, and as much as from a marketing standpoint, I know maybe that’s not the. 

Ellie:
I know we shouldn’t be saying this, but I agree with you there because. 

Stephen:
I think I remember even the days before social media and how you really formed true connections with people and how important those connections were. And they’re still important now. 

Ellie:
Right. 

Ellie:
We’re taking photos of the moment, but we’re not actually enjoying the moment ourselves. I’m with you 100%. Let’s get rid of all social media people. Thank you. And with that, I thank you for your time, Steven. Thank you so much. And we’ll be back with the next guest. 

Stephen:
Thank you. It’s been a pleasure. 

Ellie:
Thank you. 

Last but not least, Raj Aurora shares his passion for fandoms and connecting emotions to products, especially in the anime space. 

Ellie:
Raj, welcome to the elusive consumer here at the Future Festival. Thank you for joining us. 

Raj:
Well, thank you for having me here today. 

Ellie:
So, Raj from Just Funky, tell us a little about your organization and role. 

Raj:
So what we do is we focus on fandom. 

Ellie:
Okay? 

Raj:
The emotional connection of fans of any kind of genre. You could be a fan of music. You could be a fan of anime. That’s what we focus really on, japanese anime right now. We let the product take the fans to their experience of the emotional connection to the TV show or the character. 

Ellie:
Right. 

Raj:
So we incorporate emotions into products. So when somebody drinks out of a coffee mug, it makes them feel interesting without any drugs. 

Ellie:
I was going to ask if there is anything illegal involved here. 

Raj:
Not exactly. 

Ellie:
How long have you been with the organization? 

Raj:
I’ve been doing this since. Well, I’ve been in fandom since I was 15 years old. I started this when I was in high school, focusing on fandom there. 

Ellie:
Wow. 

Raj:
Start with a grateful dead. I am not that old. 

Ellie:
No. Guess. 

Raj:
All right. Don’t age. 

Ellie:
It just flew right by over my head. Okay. And you talked about Japanese anime? 

Raj:
Correct. 

Ellie:
It is so incredibly popular. Why do you think it suddenly got so popular in the Western market? 

Raj:
Well, obviously Covid had a lot to do with it or the popularity or how fast it grew. 

Ellie:
Right. 

Raj:
But the truth, if you look at it, is anime began back in the 80s when people were smuggling Japanese video cassettes or DVDs from Japanese anime and bringing them to America and dubbing them. Or people were watching it illegally and didn’t understand what it was, but it spoke to them. Japanese culture has been restrictive in many ways, as all we know, but it also allowed expression in their manga, which turned into anime, the animation part of it. But it allows expression about people. When we have in America, when we have the superheroes, we’re restricted to a certain kind. We have to be heroes, or we’re the villains. But that’s it. There’s nothing else. But if there are no other genres, you can express how you truly feel. 

Ellie:
Which Japanese anime do that Japanese allow you to feel that, in art, a range of emotions? Absolutely. 

Ellie:
And do you think that has something to do with the new generations as well? 

Raj:
Absolutely. With the individuality. And everybody wants personalization. So we can now, whoever you are, whatever race you are, whatever you do, whatever you like, there’s something for you. 

Ellie:
Right. 

Raj:
With the streaming services, you can tap into how it relates to your life. There’s that much content out there. 

Ellie:
Wow. 

Raj:
And so people can relate to it versus just the traditional media where you’re told a certain way to live, a certain way. What’s wrong and what’s right? 

Ellie:
Right. 

Raj:
The paradox of the Japanese culture would be that you’re allowed to be whoever you want to be. That’s what a beautiful thing. Japanese or even just this Asian anime, which is coming from Korea now, China. Amazing stuff coming out there. 

Ellie:
So, in your line of work, you live and breathe innovation. 

Raj:
Absolutely. 

Ellie:
What made you so passionate about new things, trends, and all of these things? 

Raj:
That’s a great question. My psychiatrist asked me the same question all the time. So, you know, it’s. It’s. It’s the. I particularly don’t watch anime or any of the movies and TV shows, but what attracts me is the fans out there; they’re willing to pay more money for that connection. It makes me want to. The why is to see that smile on the fan’s face when they hold that mug and how it relates to them. When I go into social media sites and see what people are really talking about their product and how it helped them, you see these NBA players, NFL, you’ll see everywhere. They talk about how the shoes that they owned or the t-shirts they own, and what impact they had in their life. 

Raj:
I love to be part of that, and I want to do something better for the fans every day. 

Ellie:
I love that. So you’re driven by your consumers and the customers. 

Raj:
Absolutely. I live and breathe them. 

Ellie:
Yeah. And what are you learning here at the future festival to help improve their lives? 

Raj:
It’s opened my eyes. It gave me the answer to the shift. There’s also a shift going on in the industry from what we saw in the Japanese or indie cinema, which is thanks to Netflix, Hulu, and all these people who brought in. But what this has done is it’s actually validated a lot of things which the micro trends which were going on a few years ago, how their macro trends and how we can communicate better and do a better job for them is what I felt, that the summit has done a great job. It’s only the first day. 

Ellie:
Right. And your company covers many different types of markets, embodying globalization in a way. What do you think is the future for organizations across all industries in the sense of how they approach the global versus the local consumer? 

Raj:
Well, I think looking at a market as global is a mistake. I think everything is local. Every market we go to, every state that we go to, I think there’s a sense of localizing that to the product, or you got to embed yourself in the culture. I can’t go to India and say I expect the same fandom which is in America will relate over there. It’s a different culture. It’s dubbed a different language and a different way of thinking. So I think we have to cater to the really localized culture. 

Ellie:
That makes a lot of sense. You have to listen to the local nuances and the markets and the perceptions and their thoughts. Talk to me about excitement versus fear. In this new era that we’re living in. 

Raj:
The excitement is greater than fear. I think the excitement I feel living in this world right now is greater than the fear. The only fear I would have is keeping up with it, but otherwise, I’m excited for the future. 

Ellie:
And do you feel that the rest of your team feels the same, or how do you embed that culture within your team? 

Raj:
It’s definitely a challenge, being we are a small company and we designed our company to be that way. We want to be personable, we want to be catering to people. So we give the artists the freedom to express themselves how they feel they should do it. We don’t restrict that, but we find that the teams are hesitant and rightfully so because there’s a lot of fear about AI coming in. We’re a design house. Or you see the strikes going on, and you saw the event today that what they’ve talked about, it’s going to be coming down to that. I see that the TVs will be obsolete in a few years. For a TV manufacturer, it’s very scary. But if you’re an XR or VR thing, it’s an exciting opportunity, or if you’re designed for that. 

Ellie:
But if you are an actor, you have fear. So my team feels it will replace it because they don’t understand it yet. 

Raj:
They think it’s going to take creativity away when, in fact, it’s going to add creativity to a product. So now, for example, it’s more than what you asked, but I’ll give you a perfect example of. We do ramen bowls. So we did years ago. Now, it’s saturating the market. I was thinking of creative ideas. Okay, what do we do, and how do we make it more personal? And how do we communicate what this means for them? And so sitting here this morning, I said, okay, how do we personalize a menu that we can provide with them? That, hey, personalized recipe that comes through AI and is curated. But AI helps because we’re not chefs. So, AI is going to help us become more talented. 

Ellie:
I think I like it. No, I love it. I’m going to ask you a couple of random questions. 

Ellie:
Okay, so you have the budget and approval to make a Super Bowl. Commercial for your brand. You can choose any celebrity to appear in the commercial. Who would you choose and why? 

Raj:
I wouldn’t choose a celebrity. 

Ellie:
Interesting. 

Raj:
I think the consumers are way too smart. We’re dealing with consumers who have been the smartest consumers we’ve ever had in any of this lifetime around. I would bring somebody from the community who represents their beliefs to talk to them. I don’t need a celebrity to pay for a fake doctor. That’s not right. 

Ellie:
Right. That’s a great answer. And it represents this new generation. Like you said, they prefer the actual user among them, the same people like themselves. I love that. Great answer. 

Raj:
Thank you. 

Ellie:
Okay, let me pick another one. This might be difficult to answer, but what’s the funniest misconception someone ever had about your brand? 

Raj:
I really wouldn’t consider it a misconception. I think we did it and didn’t evolve fast enough. But throughout my career, we get tied into a genre, we become too loyal to it. So then people pigeonhole us that we are a beverageware company, or we are an anime company, or we are a music company at that time. But in the last 35 years, we’ve been everything. So that’s what’s there. But it’s our own fault to do that. So we have to evolve faster and make sure that we’re serving all markets makes sense. Maybe it’s a good thing we’re more focused on our fans there. 

Ellie:
Last question for you, Raj. If there was a theme song that played every time you walked out, what would it be? 

Raj:
I’m too sexy for you. 

Ellie:
And on that note, cheers. 

Raj:
Cheers. 

Ellie:
Thank you so much, Raj. 

Raj:
Thank you. 

Ellie:
It’s been a pleasure. 

The post Ep. 7 – Voices of Visionaries — The Future Festival Edition, Part 1. appeared first on Kadence.

Transcript

Intro

Welcome to The Elusive Consumer podcast. Ellie’s guest today is Sally Mueller, founder and CEO of the menopause brand Womaness. They’ll discuss Sally’s path to entrepreneurship, how she built a business targeting an underserved audience and menopositivity in reaching elusive consumers. Let’s get started on The Elusive Consumer podcast.

Ellie:

I’m going to jump straight into this because I have so many questions for you, and I am so excited to have you here with us today, particularly because the audience that your company targets is such an elusive consumer group. So I’m very keen to hear your thoughts about data, how you collect data and how that impacts your work and your product innovation. But before we talk about Womaness, I’d love to hear a bit more about your background and your entrepreneurial journey.

Sally:

Great. Well, thank you, Ellie. It’s really fun to be part of your podcast. My background actually started at Target Corporation right out of college, and was a merchant at Target for about ten years in apparel. And then, I moved over to the marketing area for the next 15 years and had an amazing career in marketing. I was really responsible for a lot of the fashion marketing initiatives, the designer program that brought in the likes of Isaac Mizrahi, Missoni and many other designers in between. My team was responsible for all the marketing of those programs, and I just learned a lot about building brands, whether it was private label brands or partnership brands during that time, and decided to start my own business in 2010 and leave a beloved brand that I worked for 25 years. But I just felt like it was time to do something more entrepreneurial when I was 45 years old.

So I left and started my own business, and I wanted to move to the brand side to really help retailers like Target and several others, and that was my focus. So, over the next twelve years, I  actually helped bring some really great brands to retail, but also such as Who, What, Where, which is known as a fashion media company and brought it into physical products, but also incubated some really incredible new brands. My team and I at Whot Wear helped create Versed, which is a clean skincare brand that’s sold at Target, Walmart and other retailers and several other initiatives. So it was really a great experience. Those twelve years of owning my own business, eventually going in-house at Who, What, Where, and really creating these incredible brands came about while I was going through Menopause and having my own experience. And then so it’s really a business story, but it’s also a personal story.

So, the long and short of it is I was experiencing Menopause. I knew that I was in menopause and beyond the first stage, which is perimenopause, but what I didn’t realize was all of these things that I was experiencing were related to menopause. I thought they were just stressed, and I kind of blamed a hectic travel schedule. So it was sleep issues, it was night sweats, it was stress and anxiety. It was low libido. And all of those things are kind of interrelated. When you start not sleeping well, you start to affect every aspect of your life. But it wasn’t until I went to a doctor at the Mayo Clinic did I started to really understand that those symptoms were really part of menopause. And it was very common for women to experience those kinds of symptoms. I mean, those are some of the most common symptoms.

And the doctor was so gracious about educating me about menopause, making me not feel alone. And then at the end of the appointment, she suggested that I check out some over-the-counter products on Amazon. And I did. I checked those out when I got home, and I thought, I am never buying any of these products. These products are not made with clean formulations. They are really outdated. I was very savvy at this point because I had just helped create a clean skincare brand, and I was really steeped in the knowledge of the beauty industry and the personal care industry and what was going on. So I thought, boy, why am I not doing this? Why am I not tackling this space? I am squarely in it. I know so many women, all my friends and colleagues, and just so many people in my community who are in it.

And I should really tackle this space. It must be a huge space. And that’s when I really set out to address it. So that’s my story of how I got from post-college to where I am now. And it’s been a really exciting career, a very long career. I’ve been obviously working for, what, 35 years or so, but this has been the most rewarding, I would say, is really helping women feel and look better.

Ellie

Right. And I want to touch upon that because I read that one of your core missions, beyond that educational piece that you just mentioned, is a concept of menopositivity. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and what that means for you personally as well as your organization?

Sally
Yeah, so that really came about my co-founder, Michelle, and I really believed that it was so important for us to reframe the conversation around menopause kind of and make it obviously less taboo, for sure, but also not fall into the trap of the stereotypical like menopause jokes. We wanted it to be uplifting. We were both branding people, and when we looked around at even the imagery that was available when were first concepting womanists, it was appalling. Women were just portrayed in such outdated ways. And we know that’s not how we are today, that we’re very cool, modern, beautiful women that are 40 to 75 and plus years old. And we wanted to really celebrate that. And so we thought of menopause activity is our way of expressing that it’s this outlook on life, it’s this more radiant view of this stage of life because so many women told us it was a really incredible stage of change, not just physical change, but also the mental change that goes with it.

Just like if you’ve always wanted to start your own business, now’s the time to do that. Or if you’re going to retire and travel the world, now’s the time to do it. It’s this kind of epiphany that a lot of women have, and it’s kind of like shedding all the things that have been holding you back. And so that’s what menopause activity is all about. And it’s really based on the goal of being educated about menopause, but also inspired by being around the right community. And we believe that if you’re educated and inspired by the community, you’re going to have a much easier experience going through menopause.

Ellie

Right. How do you go about getting that message out and building trust in a community, especially when there are certain challenges in the advertising space?

Sally

Right.

Ellie
Tell us a bit about those challenges and how you’ve gone about building that trust in that space.

Sally

Yeah, well, there’s so many challenges. First of all, reaching our women is really not easy. Right. It’s not like reaching a Gen Z or Millennial consumer. Right, and there are challenges with that, too. But I had this career of really focusing on more of the younger generation, so I understood the playbook of partnering with influencers. And obviously, today, TikTok can be so explosive. That isn’t what happens with our consumers. She is very skeptical. She really does her homework, she does a lot of research before she buys one product. And our product is really affordable, so it might be a little bit easier for her to make that hurdle. But still, and I totally respect this, she’s so discerning that she doesn’t even want to buy $29 face cream until she’s done the homework on it. And so it’s a different mindset than the younger consumer, and it’s a different way of reaching her.

But the advertising world does not make it easy. We obviously have to advertise in a lot of different ways. We spend a lot of money on Meta, which is the owner of Facebook and Instagram, as your audience probably knows. And we can’t advertise some of our products, they won’t approve our ads. Anything that is related to sexual wellness, sometimes even our supplements, don’t get approved. And we’re here to try to help women feel better. And sexual wellness is part of feeling better, too, obviously. It’s vaginal dryness, it’s a symptom. And even without the sexual part of the story, we still can’t advertise a lot of those products. So there’s a lot of us in the industry that are tired of these advertising policies, that we’re trying to make a lot of change, but it’s hard. We have to run a business at the same time.

But I think it’s so challenging but so exciting at the same time to try to reach our consumers and build that trust. And I think we finally, since we’re the consumers too, it was a little bit more obvious to us about how to do that, like outstanding customer service voices that they trust. So don’t think about it as an influencer strategy. Think about it as these women that they trust already, and we’re just telling their story. Right? And so it’s just a whole different way of marketing to our audience than I would think what a millennial or Gen Z brand is experiencing.

Ellie

Right, so your products are available both in select target stores, Ulta Beauty I believe, as well as online through your website and so forth. How do you tailor your marketing strategy to reach consumers both offline and online?

Sally

Well, I think our consumer right now I think has really become a pretty sophisticated online shopper. And the reason is she really does. I think maybe during the pandemic, she started to get more comfortable with it like everyone else did. Right. But I think just the marriage of education and information with the product, the more we contextualize that product, given how discerning she is, she wants to buy it right then and there after she’s really become knowledgeable about the product. So it’s an easier shopping experience. I think she still wants to shop in-store. I think sometimes we’re not making it easy for her to find the product she’s looking for in-store. It’s still a very, you know, it’s a very, I would say, cumbersome. You know, it’s not a seamless process right now to shop in a lot of retail stores. So the more we can pull the product together, really tell the story.

I don’t expect to educate her much in the retail environment. I think that’s tough, but I think just makes it easier for her to shop. And I think that’s really the future is how do we make especially a category that includes like our brand includes supplements, sexual Wellness and Skin and body. So really figuring out how to present the product in-store is the key. But I think it’s now, you asked about the difference. How do you know between those things? You know, you have to almost think about every channel having nuances, even know Facebook versus Instagram versus TikTok versus all of these other even within social platforms. So it’s important that you really figure out that nuance between all the different channels.

Ellie

Right. I want to talk a little bit about data. So, as a data-driven podcast, obviously, we’re going to be curious about how you leverage data market research to create products that cater to the specific needs of your target audience. Can you share some insights into your process?

Sally

Yeah, I mean, we had a process obviously still today, but it’s very different today now that we have actual customers. But when we first started, we did a lot of focus groups across the US. To really understand not only what women wanted from our brand but what kind of products and what was really paramount with those products. So we knew that they were pretty sophisticated when it came to ingredients, clinically derived ingredients so that we could reference those clinical studies. And that was something that Michelle and I were passionate about anyway. And we knew that we had to be careful with our products around anyone that has breast cancer in their family. So we made all of our products estrogen-free and soy-free to make sure that they were safe for any people who experience any sort of cancer in their family or previous cancer issues.

But we really heard from women that they wanted our line to be affordable so they could buy multiple products for multiple symptoms. So again, we use focus groups at the beginning, but then once we’ve started to get so much feedback from women about what they’re looking for, and it comes from multiple sources, a lot of it is through our interactions daily with our customers. So we really believe that customer service is something so important to this customer. I think they’re shocked when they talk to a human because they’re so used to thinking they’re working with bots, and they actually ask, is this actually a real person behind this phone call? Yes, this is the CEO you’re calling, Sally or Ann, on our team that handles many questions, whether it’s shipping questions or other questions. So it’s so important that we take all of that interaction and we really respond.

We spend a lot of time as a team digesting what we’re hearing from our customers, and then we do a lot of surveys because our customers are so engaged, and really, they’re part of our journey, right? We can’t be successful without them, and they’re part of this movement that we’ve created. So it’s important that we’re listening to, asking for their needs, and responding to their needs. And we try to validate that with any industry market analysis. But when you’re a startup, you can’t afford to subscribe to these super-expensive market data reports. And I wish we could because I’m a numbers geek as well. But you also have to kind of also bring in your own industry expertise. You have to talk to different people who maybe have created certain businesses before around those particular categories to understand what the hurdles are.

And then you have to mainly listen to the customer, right?

Ellie

You mentioned a very important aspect there of the human touch and building that relationship and rapport with your audience. How do you maintain that as you scale?

Sally

Well, it’s a good question. I think we can maintain it. Obviously, we use a platform for all of our customer service to streamline everything. I think right now, we think it’s so important to invest in this, and over time, we could end up having someone. We have someone right now on our staff that I would say probably works part-time on customer service, and then the other part, she works on all the community activities. So she’s very steeped in what the consumer and our customer is looking for. But over time, we can add to that team and scale it that way. But I think it’s not something we’re going to outsource. It’s so important for us to stay connected to our consumers, and I think that’s how big companies start to fail because they aren’t connected anymore, and they’re kind of going down a path where they think they have the answer, and their consumer has changed, and they’re not keeping up with their consumer.

So I really believe it’s an important place for us to invest in.
Ellie
And you talked about the pandemic earlier in terms of how it’s shifted behaviors. What other trends or shifts have you seen in consumer behavior that have led your company to adapt in different ways?

Sally

Yeah, I think obviously there are so many others it’s not maybe a trend, but just other factors of the economy. I think that our consumer is not as impacted by the economic situation, but she is. I always say to our team there is a level of impact even though we’re in a need category and we’re in a new category. That’s what I’m so excited about, too is just that we are more probably recession-proof, but there still will be an impact. I don’t want to say today that there isn’t a per cent of our consumers that aren’t pulling back. They are. So, it’s important to stay grounded. I think the other thing that I think is a trend that I’m just feeling is just the overwhelming amount of brands out there and products, and no one knows who to trust, no one knows what to believe. And you fall into a trap with all these brands doing kind of the same marketing, and it’s like this direct response marketing.

So it’s a lot of hyperbole, and that’s what I’m trying to be like: the honest brand, the brand we feel we have so much integrity. We’ve put in the best ingredients at active levels. We’ve invested in clinical studies, we’ve invested in testing all of our products with doctors, not just the baseline testing quality and all of those things, but we’ve taken it a step further, so we feel very good about it. But it is, I think, a challenge of just how much our consumer deals with in terms of just a barrage of advertising and really not knowing who to believe. And I feel like that’s a trend that’s about to explode is just this honest approach in advertising and how important that is. And consumers are going to be really voting with their dollars. They’re going to go towards brands they feel they can trust, they’ve had a good experience with, and they’re not always going to fall for the advertising.

So I don’t know what to call it. But I think that’s kind of an undercurrent that’s happening. I think there’s also back to the barrage of products, too. There’s just a need to really streamline for the consumer. And we have about 17 products, and we’re never going to be a company with 35 products. We really want to stay very consolidated. Every product has a role, and we just don’t want to confuse the consumer. So I think that’s also a trend that has been out there for a few years, and some brands are really capitalizing on that.

Ellie

Talk a little bit about the stigma that the whole concept of menopause had for years and how that is now starting to shift and change. We’re seeing celebrities. Everyone from Naomi Watts to Michelle Obama and Oprah Winfrey sharing their personal stories. But how about corporations? What responsibility do you think companies in the beauty wellness industry have? And have you seen or noticed any shift in their advertising and highlighting this particular group of women?

Sally

Yeah, and we talk about this a lot internally. It’s just like menopause is kind of part of that. We’re part of the aging movement as well and celebrating this consumer; whether she’s over 40, menopause doesn’t always also affect just women over 40. You can have menopause; you can go into menopause in your 30s. So we teeter around pro aging and menopause at the same time. But I do think a lot of beauty companies are starting to see the light around embracing this older consumer and how much buying power she has. And she is willing to switch her beauty routine. She’s not stuck being 100% loyal to her brands. If you compel her through, I think, the right efficacy story or whatever story is, you can get her to move and switch brands. Because I think there was this old perception that it’s impossible to switch her, so why invest in advertising to her?

And that’s not true. But I think a lot of companies are starting to embrace and show this more ageless consumer, which is really exciting to see. Right.

Ellie

And in terms of the consumer, we talk about them as a group of women in a certain age group. And you emphasize an important point in terms of the difference between perimenopause and women in menopause. I also want to touch upon the accessibility and inclusivity aspect. How do you go about making sure that you can promote greater awareness and understanding of menopause across cultures?

Sally

Yeah, well, our goal is just to represent those different cultures. We’ve got to represent different ages. Because you can be in your late 30s, let’s say the sweet spot of going through perimenopause might be your early 40s. Right. And then we have customers in their sixties and seventies. So, we have this huge demographic range. So it’s important that we represent the different cultures. And it comes down to the fact we want women to see themselves in our marketing and really be able to relate to our we because we’re accessibly priced, and we’re available in Ulta Beauty and select Target stores. We’re on Amazon and we sell on QVC womanist.com. We’re really well positioned to be accessibly available as well. So it’s not just a price but also be available where these women are shopping. So it’s an ongoing effort. We’re not perfect, but we are always striving to reflect our consumers in all of our advertising.

Ellie

Right? And you’ve also started a community on Facebook where women can relate and share stories. Do you think that is a suitable channel? And do you see women of this age group being on that channel these days? Are there any other channels where you try to raise awareness?

Sally

Yes. So the private Facebook group is called the after party, and we called it that because it’s now symbolic of you having more fun at the after party than you do at the actual party. So it was really born out of the desire to connect women to share tips, some of our experts, and just have an open conversation. It’s not really a channel for us to push products or anything like that. It’s really just got women talking to each other and feeling more comfortable with the space. So I do think it’s really playing that think, you know, that is a totally very viable channel for brands. I know a lot of other brands that have private Facebook groups. They don’t always call it the same name as the brand. So they keep this distinction like what we’ve done. But there are so many other ways to get your message out.

We have an incredible, I call it, e-newsletter, but it’s basically our newsletter that goes out, and it’s really important, and women find it really important to get information from our experts. And so we don’t always talk about our products. They also want to learn about our products, but they also want information about menopause and midlife. What books should they read? We bring in other facets of their life that they’re really interested in. So that’s another important channel. Social media, just at large, is an important channel. So, each channel does have its role, and it’s important to be everywhere. That’s what you have to be really everywhere.

Ellie

Right? And I like the idea of calling it after the party to bring the humor out. And I don’t know if you’ve seen that post of Courtney Cox on Instagram where she jokes about the whole menopause aspect. And there’s a lot of that where people have this fear, particularly in the perimenopause age, of what it means to enter your menopause stage. And how do you battle that in terms of the fear of aging, the fear of what it might mean for you, particularly as you approach that stage of your life?

Sally

I think a lot of women are afraid because they don’t have the knowledge and they’re smart women. We’re all in this together. So much like my own experience, I didn’t feel informed. And I think women want to feel informed. They don’t know where to get the information. Obviously, we’ve invested in so much information. So, I really encourage women to check out our blog on womanist.com. We work with the Mayo Clinic. It’s amazing the experts that we have working with us because we’re all passionate about educating women. So I think that fear subsides to some extent when they feel like they’re in control, they’re more educated, they’re empowered, they’re more in control. I think when they have a bad experience, maybe with their doctor. Maybe their doctor is an OBGYN who helped deliver their children but knows nothing about menopause. That is what we’ve heard is very devastating for a lot of women, where they have to switch doctors and then they start going down this journey of interviewing doctors, maybe not getting the answers that they want.

And it’s only because doctors are not educated themselves in menopause. Very few have. It’s an elective course in residency. So, people must know that it’s hard to find a menopause expert. So, we just encourage women to keep trying to reach out if they need help. We have access to a lot of doctors we know. There’s also NAMS website. It’s called nams.org and also has a directory of menopause experts in each of the major, I think, across the United States. I don’t know, it’s not just major markets, but you can put in your zip code, and it can give you recommendations, but think that’s what causes the fear and then the lack of conversation. So women do want to talk about know, they might start out being very shy and scared, but then, boy, they open up and tell you so many things, so it’s just giving them the permission to talk about it.

Ellie

Right. And what can companies or corporations do in terms of workplaces? You touched upon the healthcare providers, but it’s funny because we get advice for various checkups. But how often do you get advice to check your hormone levels, for instance? And what can companies do to encourage their employees to take action?

Sally

Yeah, I think it’s something we published a lot recently about menopause in the workplace. And we will continue providing many stories and articles about it because it’s very underserved. That particular part of menopause is so underserved. So my recommendation is that corporations treat it much like fertility and really provide information to their employees about menopause and start just educating the whole workforce about menopause. Even if you’re a man or younger and are not in it, you should be aware of it. This is another part of women’s health. You might have a colleague with a hot flash in a meeting, and it’s okay. And so everyone needs just to be more aware of it. I think that’s honestly the first step. And then, obviously, down the road, there might be benefits that come along with helping to support women in menopause and other things that companies can do.

The real progressive ones should be on it already. But I think let’s just start with helping corporations educate their workforce, right?

Ellie

And can you talk to us about any particular collaborations or interesting insights you found through market research or your focus groups? We talked earlier about the product innovation side of things, but anything else in particular that research and data awareness has led for your organization and what impact it has had?

Sally

Yeah, it’s just what we’ve learned is much more about the media. How do we in the celebrity role too, with a brand like ours? What we’ve heard from women is they want to hear from real women. They really don’t respond to celebrities. And we live in a culture where it’s very celebrity-driven. We live in a world where the brand solution always becomes, well, you need a celebrity attached to your brand. And while we bring in celebrities and have relationships with celebrities, we’re about real women for the most part. And that’s what makes our brand so different. And a lot of that came back or was reinforced by just all the research that we did and hearing from our consumer on what she really wants from us. We obviously hear a lot of feedback and data about what kind of symptoms they’re experiencing.

We know one of the top symptoms they want addressed is weight gain. And we don’t have a product per se for weight gain. So we’ve really doubled down on providing content. And we have some partnerships in the weight area that I think really provide a lot of value to our customers. So we’re not capitalizing on that necessarily from a sales perspective. But we know it’s so important to provide these partnerships, this content, this information, and this support because it ultimately is servicing our customers. And we don’t have a product because there really isn’t a product that is the magic pill that’s safe and that we’re going to offer. So again, that’s how we use data: just really hearing what her needs are, what she is looking for, how we reach her, and when we reach her. We know our customer loves traveling, loves cooking, and she’s multi-dimensional.

She’s dealing with a lot of what we call the sandwich generation. Not that’s a unique term that’s been out there for years, but it is true. Like she’s dealing with taking care of aging parents. She’s got teenagers. Perhaps at home still. And it is a stressful time in her life because she’s got her own changes, right, and she’s dealing with bookends of responsibility. So again, it’s just a matter of responding to it and ensuring we make her life easier. Right.

Ellie

And in terms of her and who she is, you talked earlier about the different ages. Let’s talk about the generations. Have you seen a shift in how the millennials and Gen X perceive menopause and want to learn more about it versus the boomers, for instance?

Sally

Oh, yes, there’s rightfully so, a big difference in the generations. I’m a boomer, my co-founder is a Gen X, and we have on our team, we have Gen X, and then we have Millennials and even Gen Z. It’s so fun to see the difference between the generations. But I would say what really pulls everyone together is the unifying factor is that people do want to talk about it. The boomers are probably less so because they’re a little embarrassed still. They’re so scarred by so many years of hiding it under the rug. But the younger generation and Gen X are like, let’s go for it, let’s talk about it. Just feel really excited and empowered. And even if you’re not in menopause, you’re excited about learning more. We’ve had so many young women show up to our events. They either come with their mom or just come on their own, and they’re like, thank you for creating this.

This is so cool. This is so interesting. I won’t be as afraid when I start to go through it. So I think because the millennials have been breaking so many of the taboos and obviously the Gen Z, yes, they’re going to be much more open. They’re not going to put up with any sort of taboo around the subject. Gen X is more tolerant of that. But they’re really inspired, I would say, by the millennials. And then the boomers are just kind of like, I’m kind of tired of keeping this under the rug too long, and we do need to start talking about it. So it’s just so interesting to see the difference across these generations.

Ellie

And on the topic of stigma and taboo, with the awareness raised around mental health lately and people talking about it more openly, why do you think the stigma and the taboo around the topic of menopause has stayed with us for so long?

Sally

I think it has to do with menopause really equaling old age. There was this perception that you were over the hill, you weren’t fertile anymore, so you must be old and not giving back to society. And that’s why it’s such a taboo that needs to be desperately broken because that’s so wrong. And that’s why women are standing up and saying, I am giving back to society and men. Some of our biggest fans are men who have gone through this with their wives, or they’re just passionate about being part of it. I think there are just so many centuries of passing on. I would think old age and menopause go together when there was just a lack of education because you can be a menopause in your 30s or 40s, and obviously, 51 is the sweet spot. But we’re not old, and who cares?

Even when you’re 80, you’re not old; you’re in maybe the home stretch, but you can still live a vibrant life and give back to society. So yeah, it’s ageism; it all wraps in together. Right.

Ellie

What do you see as the future for the beauty lifestyle industry, and how is a woman positioning herself for the future?

Sally

Well, I think the future is more of this merging, which is already happening. Obviously, the merging of wellness products and beauty products is coming together because beauty is also feeling good inside and not just the external beauty. So I think it’s all wrapped together, but that’s probably more of the present day. I see future retailers really responding to that, trying to figure out how to merchandise these solutions more so the consumer finds the solutions easier in the store. I think there’s a lot more service that has to come to the consumer. I think there’s been such an incredible explosion of telehealth companies and different ways of getting health care that I think is part of, in a way, merging with what we’re doing. And there’s so much innovation happening in that space that is also affecting the beauty industry. I mean, think about the explosion of spas and medical spas, right, where you can get services.

So I think that could even have a big impact on how we eventually sell our products too because the consumer is going in, she’s talking about her skin, she’s talking about perhaps her sexual wellness issues. It’s this whole self that’s really being treated and not just one dimension of it. Right.

Ellie

If you were to give advice to other entrepreneurs who are looking to create innovative brands and products that cater to niche markets and have particularly elusive consumers such as yours, what advice would you give?

Sally

Well, know that it’s going to take time. Nothing is fast when creating a new category or targeting an elusive consumer. And so you’ve got to have honestly the right financial modeling done where you’re not expecting this incredible growth explosion in the first year or two. It’s going to take a while, and you have to invest a lot upfront in not only hard work, that sweat equity piece, but also the marketing piece to really get the message out and to reach and try different things, test and learn to reach your elusive consumer. So it’s just a lot of it comes down to how you think about your capital efficiency, how you think about your financial modeling and some of those very important foundational things that go into running a startup. Right.

Ellie

And you talked a little bit earlier about the accessibility of data and being able to invest in certain data pools. What importance has data had for your organization, and how do you think startup companies can get that data from their consumers when they might not be at a stage where they can invest too much in market research, for instance?

Sally
Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of data. If you’re running an online business, there’s a ton of data, so you’ve got tools already set up through Shopify if you use the Shopify platform. But beyond that, it’s important that you hire people who love data but are not so bogged down in data that they can’t make a decision. So, in a startup, you’ve got to move so fast. But I think what we’ve really been passionate about is hiring people on our team who love data, can use it effectively, make decisions quickly, test and learn from that data and move on. And it should be everyone. It should not just be relegated to the head of Digital or the loyalty employee. It needs to be across the whole organization. Everyone needs to be steeped in data. And I think, given Michelle and my background, we really respect data.

I think you can get into a trap of, know, I’m not going to really listen to that data, but because we’ve grown up in corporate environments and different environments, I think we really respond to data. But at the end of the day, obviously, it must be the art and science. You have to make the call at some point. Test and learn, though. That’s the biggest advice that I have. Get more data by testing and learning.

Ellie

Right? I want to ask you finally about a few key takeaways from both the company’s and corporations’ point of view, but also the consumer’s point of view. So, starting with the companies, what would you advise them in this particular space, if they’re operating in this space or if they’re thinking just to be able to advertise better and target women of this age group? What tips would you give?

Sally

Well, I think know some of the underpinnings of this consumer. I mean, she is very discerning. She likes personalized service. Now, that doesn’t mean that you have to personalize everything, but she likes that personal touch, I should say. So there’s just, I think, just knowing the consumer and no matter what industry that you’re in, there’s some really important insights that cross all the industries. She’s very skeptical at first, so you have to build trust. And word of mouth is super important. We know it is with the other generations, too, but it’s like literally a physical word of mouth. It’s not just what I see on social media I’m going to respond to and buy. She really has to hear from her girlfriends if that’s a good product or not.

Ellie

And for the consumers themselves, exploring the space, which, with 50 million plus women now in their menopause, what steps should they take to ensure they get the best products for their buck?

Sally

I think doing the research online is a very efficient way of looking at consumer reviews and reaching out. She’s curious. Maybe it’s a high-ticket item or something she’s ingesting. She should have no problem contacting the company and learning more. It’s taking the time to do the research and find out. Ask around. Ask around to your immediate community. But a lot of our customers use reviews, and if the reviews are good and they read them, they do. They read the reviews, and they do their homework before they buy anything. Right.

Ellie

Well, Sally, thank you so much for your time today. Before we wrap up, is there anything else you want our listeners to hear?

Sally

Well, you had so many great questions. I can’t think of anything that you didn’t cover. I encourage people not to be afraid of going after this segment. It’s a really exciting, huge white space when you think about it. There are so many opportunities. And I think the aging population is also just an incredible white space for different services and different products. Whether you’re in the fashion industry or the beauty industry, the automotive industry, there’s so much innovation yet to happen to better service this customer.

Ellie

Right. And I love something you wrote on your website about how some of the smartest women are in this age group. Yes, it’s important to highlight that, I think.

Sally

Yeah. And I think my advice, too, is to lean on your network for me. I already had so many women in this age group because they were my friends, my colleagues and all of my different industry friends, so just pick their brains. And, before I started Womaness, I got a lot of really good feedback from those women about what to do and what not to do. They did not want to see me fail, and I know Michelle did the same thing with her friend, so then you look for those common themes because I grew up in the Midwest. I live in the Midwest. Michelle’s in New York. So we had the coastal perspective, the Midwest perspective. So it’s really important just to keep listening and keep asking questions.

Ellie

Thank you so much for your time and all the work that you do to spread on this topic.

Sally

Thank you, Ellie. Thanks for the opportunity to tell my story.

The post Ep. 6 – Womaness – Reaching the Elusive Menopause Consumer, with Sally Mueller. appeared first on Kadence.

Transcript

Intro
Welcome to another episode of The Elusive Consumer. Today, Ellie is speaking with Cole Atkinson, Senior Product Manager at Shopify. Join us as Cole delves into the fascinating world of consumer behavior, sharing insights on understanding diverse customer perspectives, translating these insights into effective marketing strategies, and glimpsing into the future of e-commerce with AI and augmented reality.

Ellie:
We’re really excited to have you with us today and hear more about your personal and professional journey and your role at Shopify. I want to start off with your personal journey. Being a fellow expat, I always find it interesting to hear about people who moved from their original country into a new market and how that has shaped them as professionals. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Cole: 

You know, so I’m from New Zealand originally, and it’s almost, for a lot of people in New Zealand, it’s somewhat of a rite of passage to live overseas at some point. New Zealand is such a wonderful, beautiful country, but it’s also very small. And, so, my motivation for moving overseas here to Canada was that I was very fond of North America. I’ve spent a lot of time in the US. I’m a former representative water skier, so I often went to the US. For New Zealand’s winters and train there. So I grew very fond of it, but also my sort of professional motivation led me to Canada to expand my horizons into technology, which is how I arrived. Part of the reason why I arrived at, you know, Canada is fantastic. There are many similarities culturally between New Zealand and, you know, obviously, Canada itself is a lot bigger.

Cole: 

Our proximity to the US in terms of my career and professionally what I’m able to do. I’m just afforded so many professional opportunities that would be very difficult or may not even exist in New Zealand. And that’s what’s led me to stay here. I came here on just a work visa initially and turned into a permanent resident, so, yeah, Canada is fantastic. And I look back, New Zealand will always be home, but it’s kind of like I’ve almost lived, in some ways, two lifetimes. It’s so different. And I look back, it’s almost like starting over when I moved to Canada. And, yeah, can’t speak highly enough about the country and the people, and really enjoying my time here. And I know we’ll talk about a little bit, but Shopify as well, right?

Ellie:
Speaking of Shopify, you transitioned into that role from your original role in sales. Talk to us about that and how you then went from a user of the platform to now building the product yourself.

Cole:
Yeah, for sure. I always struggle with this question a little bit. I’m not sure how far is too far back to go, but basically, I fumbled my way through university. I took a lot of time off through university and didn’t really want to study. And after taking time off and, like I mentioned, traveling to the US. And doing a lot of training over there, I came back, and I think I had 18 months left on my degree, and I was just like, let’s just get this done. But because I had been, I guess you could say, lazy and just wanted to have fun, all of my friends had already graduated and were in the workforce, and I was still a poor student. So, I negotiated a deal with a local software vendor to do sales for them, and they were very good. I think I found a bit of a cheat code with the university, and I probably only attended about 20% of my lectures.

It was all recorded. So, I worked during the day, and then I watched lectures in the evening that were recorded to finish my degree. And that’s sort of how I fell into sales, I guess. My initial sales job was going around to retailers in New Zealand, actually selling them boxes of compact disks of Internet security software for a company called Symantec. And then that was a highly rewarding job, a great start to my career. But I think my first year in that job, I took close to 100 flights around New Zealand because I was traveling and seeing customers all the time, which was extremely tiring. And I thought, is this something I see myself doing long term? And ultimately, the answer to that was no. And I had a very good friend who was actually the best man at my wedding, who had and still has his own business selling interior automotive accessories online.

So you think about like a weather tech or car seat covers, car mats, all these things. He had a very niche business, and he gave me the opportunity to work alongside him. And that’s how I got into e-commerce. He had a pretty strong wholesale business, but Direct-to-Consumer was sort of an afterthought. So, it was just the two of us. And as probably a lot of your listeners know, when there are two of you in the business, you wear so many different hats. So, there was sales, there was operations, there was customer support, all of these things. But I grew really fond of Direct-to-Consumer and e-commerce and stumbled across Shopify from a Facebook ad, and, yeah, really got to know the platform during my time. And I sort of arrived at a similar point where I was really enjoying my time there.

I was very grateful to my good friend for the opportunity he had afforded me, but I’d always had this itch to live overseas. I knew that Shopify was a Canadian company, and through using their platform, I had grown to learn a lot about the company itself. And love the company as much as I love the platform. So, it became a bit of a dream for me to work for Shopify, and luckily enough, I was afforded the opportunity to move from New Zealand to Canada to work for Shopify, which I’ll be forever grateful to them for. And, yeah, went into a job in account management with them. So, I had a book of business where I would look after anywhere between 30 and 50 brands using the platform and from them. I’ve been at Shopify coming up seven years now, and I slowly transitioned myself from account management and technical account management and used a lot of the skills I had gained, and I guess you could say customer empathy I’d gained from interacting with customers every day and applied that to a goal of getting into product management. And the same thing. I’d like to think that I work hard, but I’ve also had a lot of luck along the way. And I met my current lead, Rohit, who I basically said, hey, I want to be a product manager. I’m not asking you for a job, but this is really what I want to do. I love this company, I love the platform, I love helping our customers with the platform, but I want to be one of the people that makes it better. I kind of figured out at 30 years old, finally, that I’m a builder and I enjoy building things. And so, he just said, Right, let’s go. I was very lucky, but really refreshing to have that from a lead who there wasn’t really anything in it for him.

He’s like, I had no experience in product management, and he sort of took me under his wing, and I’m now still on that same team as a Senior Product Manager. And again, I’ll be forever grateful for the opportunity because, as with everyone, there are good days and bad days, but I wake up every day and reflect, know, like just saying to Ben, reflecting on what we’ve been able to achieve this week this month, and we’re making a lot of progress, which is extremely satisfying as a builder.

Ellie:
Right, that’s an amazing story. And the passion that you have for building things is probably shown in the products and services that you deliver to your customers. And I want to talk a little bit about the love that you feel for the company. You mentioned that you use them and you really enjoyed working with their platform. What specifically do you think are the key factors to Shopify’s success? Do you think it’s the ability to customize or the ease of use? Or what would you say is the key differentiator?

Cole:
Yeah, that’s a really good question. So, I think, first of all, our executive leadership team, and specifically Toby, our CEO —Toby’s the founder, and he’s a technical leader. And what drove me to the company and what keeps me here today is really the mission and the motivation behind the mission. Shopify is an extremely strong product-led company, and we have a principle here that we say make great products, earn money sorry, I’ll start that answer again because I always get this mixed up start with number one, which is making great products, do more of one, sorry, two, we need to make money. Do more of one so that we can get more of two, but never reverse those two, never reverse the mission. And I think that’s why Shopify is a public company. We need money, and we need revenue to be successful and to survive.

But I think what I have strongly felt here versus any other company I’ve ever worked for is that when our customers win, we win. And I think I could go into all sorts of details about product functionality, design, ease of use, and those things are important, and they do set Shopify apart. But I think rooted in our mission is this principle: helping our merchants and our customers win. And if they win, we do. Simply put, it’s that for me.

Ellie:
The fact that you talk about understanding the customer and the customer empathy that you had from a previous account management and sales role is very much aligned with the purpose. Of this podcast and trying to figure out really how to better engage and connect with your customers, whether they’re consumers or merchants, like in your case, so, if you were to talk about some of those challenges for Shopify, specifically in understanding your merchants, what would you say those are?

Cole:
Yeah, that’s also another really good question. The challenge is always scalability. So, we have more than 2 million businesses around the world using the Shopify platform. Right now, we’re a multi-tenanted SaaS platform, so we don’t build one-off custom solutions for people. And that has traditionally been what software was, right? Hey, you need a piece of software, hire someone and pay the money to build what you need. But that also doesn’t scale. So, we have a very scalable technological solution. Talking to customers is always difficult in a scalable way because all I want to do is be on the phone with them every day. But if I did that and that was all I did, I’m not going to get much of my actual job done. So it’s definitely a balance and, I think, a big, I won’t say struggle, but a challenge we’re taking head-on right now is that Shopify was a company born out of helping entrepreneurs.

So people that are getting started, and if you look at Shopify’s sort of growth trajectory, they had a lot of success around the GFC in 2008, 2009 because people were out of jobs, and they’re like, I need to make money. At a time when a lot of other companies were declining, Shopify was actually growing because all of these people, out of necessity, were starting businesses. But the balance we’re now striking with that is that we have been so successful as a platform that we now have multinational brands using the platform, enterprise brands who are generally accustomed to what we would normally call custom solutions, where they need something, and they can just pay someone to build it. And that is not something that we do, it’s not something that we’ll ever do because that’s just not a scalable software solution. So, the challenge for us is how we speak to enough customers while still making enough time to do the core of our role.

And how do we come up with solutions that are representative of our entire merchant base? So, how do we come up with products and solutions that will scale to helping brands like Gymshark, but also helping someone who’s just starting their first business? And how do we balance the time that we spend on each of these? So, we have a big thing here when we speak to customers, and if you go on direct-to-consumer Twitter and SaaS Twitter, you’ll see people arguing about feature requests all the time. Do you take feature requests? Do you have a public roadmap? I hate feature requests because you can have three different customers with the same problem, the exact same problem, and they suggest three different features to you to fix them. So when we speak to people, it’s always challenging to scale it. But we try and speak to people who are representative of the overall customer base, but also really delve into their problems.

And as a customer, that can be quite frustrating sometimes because they’re just like, no, just give me this feature. But that is not something that we can do scalably. And so, for the health of the merchant experience and the health of the platform, it’s really challenging for us to make sure that we stay focused on what are the problems that we’re trying to solve.

Ellie:
Right. One of the things you mentioned there is incredibly interesting, and I don’t think enough organizations do this, but gathering insights and data from enough of a diverse range of customers, so it’s not that biased outlook and targeting purely what you believe is your typical customer, your typical consumer. So I want to move on from that in terms of you gather data, and you clearly gather insights from your customers, but then how do you translate that into effective marketing strategies?

Cole:
Yeah, that’s interesting too. There’s definitely to use a cliche: no one size fits all here. So, I work on a team focused on helping merchants with global selling. So if you’re selling domestically and you want to reach other parts of the try, we speak with customers from a lot of different countries. And so the way we conduct business in North America is, in a lot of ways, completely different. In some cases polar opposite to the way that they operate in Europe and the same for Asia. So for us, what is really important is translating our knowledge, literally translating, but translating our message as well into something that’s going to be received in these different regions around the world. And so it’s really important again to make sure that the value that the customers see is going to be different in different parts of the globe as to how we do this.

And I think this is a strong suit of Shopify as well. And it’s not anything groundbreaking or complex, but it’s really listening. At the end of the day, you can run into companies and individuals who worked at companies who are so married to the solution or the idea that they’ve come up with that they can overlook the customer feedback they’re actually hearing, maybe not intentionally. So I think that what’s been really important for us is not being too married to a certain product or a certain solution to translate that into a marketing message, but being willing to say, hey, no, we started investing in that. That’s actually the wrong thing. This is what we’re hearing from our customers, and we’re not afraid to delay or pivot when we realize that what we’re going to communicate is actually not going to resonate as we thought.

Ellie:
Right. Can you talk to us about some of those examples of some surprising findings or insights that you found during these consumer insights sessions?

Cole:

Yeah, absolutely. So the majority of our, or sorry, like a large part of our merchant base is based in the US. And so for the product that I’m working on now, sometimes getting people in the US to sell globally is they consider it a distraction. They have such a large economy and such a large market domestically that, for them, it’s not as important. And it was really, I guess you could say, surprising to me, but more so just, I guess, enlightening. Over the past 18 months, I’ve started speaking to a lot more customers in Europe, and they’re thinking of things that we haven’t thought of. Because you’re in Europe, you sell across borders by default. You find very few businesses in Europe that are just selling within their own domestic market. So I get on a call with a customer, and we have an ecosystem of partners that do apps and solutions that are plugins and sit on top of Shopify.

And so I went to this customer in Sweden with something that we had built, and he said, yeah, that’s great, but how is it going to work with solution X? And I went, oh my goodness, that hadn’t even thought about that. And so this part of know, we have our core product, but then we have our ecosystem, and we really need to ensure that we’re bringing the ecosystem along with us. And so, they had thought about every part of their business and how it impacts their international selling strategy. Whereas I had been just focused on Shopify, the other one that has been really enlightening to me has been how different customers around the world pay for goods. So again, in North America, it’s a world credit card. Pretty much everything on credit card installments is becoming a really hot topic. So if you want to buy something online, and maybe I’m a golfer, so maybe it’s a set of golf clubs, so it’s a larger purchase, and so we’ve become pretty accustomed.

Yeah, put it on the credit card. Oh great. Not only can I put it on a credit card, but I can split this $1,500 purchase over four interest-free installments. But again, you go to a lot of other countries like Europe and India, for instance, and they are very much opposed to debt. And so, credit cards are far less common. And so, offering a credit card processing gateway is not enough in some of these countries. In India, so much is done by ‘cash on delivery.’ Everyone is coming to pick things up, and it’s all done by cash. When you look at Belgium, when you look at the Netherlands, they all have their own local payment methods that connect directly to their bank account and just take money straight out of their bank account. So there’s, compared to North America, very little credit card usage when you go to these other areas of the globe.

And same thing again, it’s, you know, we don’t need to just think about how to get people to or how to help people selling globally. We actually need to regionalize this product strategy because it’s one thing for the merchants to adopt it, but then it’s another thing for the buyers to actually receive what they want. And so if you don’t regionalize that strategy, you’re going to gain very little.

Ellie:
Does this align with the importance of being data-informed rather than purely data-driven? Or what does that mean to you?

Cole:
Yeah, and that’s another principle that we live by here at Shopify. Data-informed, not data driven. Because if you look at the numbers and you look purely at the data, I don’t know the data on this specifically, but the majority of transactions globally go through credit card networks. Okay? So that’s what we’re going to focus on. We’re going to focus on credit card networks. But when you look at the nuances of how this breaks down by region, it tells a very different story. And that’s been one of the things that for me to work on personally is going slightly deeper into data than I’m comfortable with. So oftentimes, I’ll want to know how our product is performing. So one of the key things we look at to know how successful or how much we’re improving our product is how quickly are merchants on the Shopify platform getting their first cross border sale.

And obviously, we want to reduce that, and we are seeing success with that, which is really great over time. On aggregate, merchants are getting their first sale quicker and quicker each year, which is great news for the product. And so I presented this fact, this finding, and I said, that’s great, but how does that vary? And I mean, what do you mean, how does that vary? Well, for instance, is that number being influenced heavily by China? Because China is they’re almost 100% exporters. How is this being impacted by Europe? What is it in America? And so when you go a level deeper, you actually see quite a different story where your product is helping people more in different regions around the, you know, then we identified a gap. Oh, okay. On aggregate, this looks great, but for example, the US is lagging behind. What are we missing here with the US?

Cole:

And to me, that is data-informed and not data-driven is going a level deeper to reveal the complete story, not sort of looking at everything in aggregate because our job’s never done. Toby, our CEO, came up with a saying once, and I’m probably going to butcher this as well, but it’s something known, Shopify is far more likely to die from indigestion than starvation. 

Ellie:
And that goes in hand with trying to decode the mystery of the elusive consumer or merchant in your case and how businesses can attract and retain them. In some of the previous talks I’ve listened to, you mentioned that the key factor or one of the key factors is optimizing for the experience or the experience. What does that mean for you, and what does that mean for Shopify?

Cole:
Yeah, that’s also another really good question. I think we always remember the bad experiences. We don’t often, I mean, we do remember the good ones as well, but we expect good, right? We don’t expect bad, but when we have a bad experience, that’s extremely memorable. I was a guest on another podcast recently, and I was not sure what it’s like in the US. But in Canada, we have extremely poor cellular and wireless operators. And when I say poor, they do a horrible job at retention because the experience sucks. I got sold into an Internet plan, which they said would be a certain price. Silly me, didn’t look at the fine print. The plan price doubled after, I think, six months. And that just leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth. That’s just a horrible experience. So immediately I’m shopping around. So I think sorry to come back to your original question.

What it means is that good experiences are just an expectation. You’re not doing your job just by providing a good experience. That’s the expectation. And so I think when we do our job by starting with the experience. There are a lot of parts of our platform that we’re not happy with. There probably always will be. There are lots of things that I wish I could fix right now. And if I was a merchant, they’re tough things to work around. We’re not perfect. But what we would like to think is that as a merchant, your experience with the software, your experience connecting with people at Shopify. So whether that’s me getting on a call with your experience is that your business goals are aligned with our business goals. And where they’re not aligned, Shopify, get out of my way, and let me tackle that bit, and you handle the rest.

And so I think, again, to answer your question, what it comes down to is that good experiences, they’re the expectation of the merchant, they’re the expectation of the consumer. And when you provide a good experience, you become part of that business. You become a partner in that business, not just a service they use.

Ellie:
What does a typical, if there is such a thing, Shopify merchant look like to you?

Cole:
I think that’s what’s great about Shopify is that we know, and through my time talking with merchants, I see wildly successful businesses selling products that I like. There’s a market for this. Oh my. You know, typically, what a good Shopify merchant looks like. They’re invested in their community. Shopify is very invested in our own community as well. They’re invested in the problems that they want to solve. And again, I think I’d like to stress the importance of the community aspect. So, one of our merchants that have been a great partner to us, and you might see in a lot of Shopify marketing, is Gymshark. And I think they have a wildly successful sense of community amongst their user base. And again, when it comes to a great experience, what better experience than buying something from a company and feeling part of that community? And like I say, Gymshark, I think, has done a massively successful job of that.

But ultimately, it doesn’t come down to just selling products. So again, using Gymshark as an example, they do. I remember back when COVID first hit, and obviously, we were all locked inside, they put out a free fitness app, so it was recordings in their studio with some of their lifters and their ambassadors running you through workouts. And they extended this out not just to their customers, but to anyone, for free. And I just thought, what a fantastic idea. And again, it comes back to not just a great idea but it comes back to our mission. For Gymshark, when their customers win, they win. When their customers are feeling fit, feeling healthy, and meeting their goals in terms of whether it’s weight loss or muscle gain, product sales are going to come. Because if I’m successful with whether it’s my weights program or my fitness program, I’m feeling good, I need workout clothes, and where am I going to go to get those workout clothes?

Well, I’m going to look to someone or a company that’s helped me achieve those goals. And if you look at a lot of the successful businesses on Shopify, they have an extremely strong sense of community. And I think those are the brands that are also highly aligned with Shopify’s mission as well.

Ellie:
Right? And the idea that doing good will lead to growth is a fantastic thing to see as well. Another fact that you have mentioned in the past in some of your talks was the importance of personalization to retain customers. Tell us a little bit more about that, and you could give some examples.

Cole:
Yeah, absolutely. So I think we all want to feel understood, right? So again, whether that is, I’ll go back to the example I had with the internet. I just want to be heard and understood. So whether I’m having a bad experience or a good experience, I want to know that the brand I’m interacting with or purchasing from understands my needs. And so personalization becomes incredibly important because without that, you just have one set of customers, and you’re kind of throwing out a fishing line and hoping that something sticks. So, some really great personalization strategies that I’ve seen have been for me in Canada. Canada is very similar to New Zealand in some ways. Like if you have New Zealand and Australia, which are kind of like the friendly cousins, and then you have Canada and the US. As you know, a lot of the time we’re buying from the US.

Brands. But the way that Canada is very similar to New Zealand in the sense that they don’t want to be bucketed in with Americans; they’re kind of like the smaller little cousin. And so, buying from some online brands recently, I’ve loved how even just their automation campaigns when it comes to retargeting and emailing have been hyper-localized for the Canadian market, even though they are US. Brands. So things that are really basic, like table stakes, like please give me my pricing in Canadian dollars, I don’t want to pay for something in the US. Dollars. That is one thing, but also considering things around local events. So, I got an email from a brand recently that is based in the US. But it was a Canada Day email. And so I knew that the brand was from the US. But I just thought, again, that might be a stretch to say personalization because Canada is an entire country.

But the fact that it wasn’t a 4th of July email, it was a Canada Day email. And to me, personalization doesn’t have to be complex. It can be very simple. And like I say, understanding as such that people in Canada don’t want to receive American promotions is particularly important in Europe as well. And so I come from, again, a bit of a biased lens where my examples tend to be across borders because. Of the product that I work in. But understanding your customers and making them feel understood is very sticky. And so that’s why I always use the example of a lot of our wireless and internet companies here, because I think they provide a necessary service, which they do, and everyone’s just going to buy it anyway. And I just think that’s a horrible experience. There’s no personalization there. I got an email from my internet provider the other day providing an offer for new customer sign-ups, and I was like, I believe I’m already a customer.

Am I meant to pass this on to my friends so they get a better deal than I do?

Ellie:
Right?

Cole:
So if you understand your customers and you make them feel understood, it’s extremely sticky.

Ellie:
Right? I want to talk a little bit about the future of e-commerce. And with everything happening around AI and machine learning as they reshape various verticals, some of which are on your platform, what do you think the merchants need to be doing today to prepare for a more competitive tomorrow?

Cole:

If you’re not investing in augmented reality, you will be so far behind, that it’s not funny. We recently released a bit of an experiment called Shop AI, which is based on our Shop app, which is our marketplace app. I’ll talk about AI, and then I’ll talk about augmented reality because I think in the case of physical goods and physical e-commerce, augmented reality is so much there’s so much potential there. But I’ll talk about AI first because AI is also going to be a personalization strategy, too. But I logged into shop AI. I typed in show me people who are selling self-tying shoelaces, and self-tying shoelaces sound silly, but I didn’t even really know what I wanted was the stretchy shoelaces. I don’t want to tie my shoelaces. I’m lazy. So, I didn’t even know self-tying laces. I thought about that after I was like, what a silly term.

There’s no self-tying laces. But then Shop AI returned me a bunch of results of these laces, which are you tie them once, and they’re basically seamless, and then you can just slip your shoes on and off. And I just thought, what an incredible way to discover new products, as opposed to going into a search engine where I’m going to be served a whole bunch of ads, sift through all the irrelevant content, open up four or five different tabs, select the right product for me, and then go out. And so the thing about AI is that, again, we talk about personalization. AI is going to be a horrendously, important personalization strategy because it’s going to learn about you. It’s going to learn about your preferences over time. It’s going to know where you’re located, it’s going to understand your spending threshold, so it’s going to know when to recommend more expensive versus cheaper products.

And so it’s going to be a huge conversion optimization tool as well for merchants. So, I struggle to see the end of the potential of AI when it comes to e-commerce shopping. I think, again, if you haven’t visited, just type in Shop AI into your browser and have a play around, even if you don’t buy anything. I think that is just absolutely scratching the surface of what is possible here. I think the other thing is, like I say, augmented reality in combination with AI as well. So, we posted a video recently, an example of someone of what it could look like for someone shopping for a new coffee machine. And they speak into the Shop app and say, hey, I’m looking for a coffee machine. It must have an espresso maker. I drink two to three coffees daily, which should be within three to $500.

And then you put your camera over your kitchen counter, and it brings up three options in augmented reality. You can drag them around, put them in place, see what the color looks like, and how does it fit into your kitchen. In Canada, we have a furniture retailer called Structube. They’re like Ikea, but normally a little bit more upmarket than Ikea. And they do a great job. You go into their stores, and they have these beautiful displays and setups and everything. And one thing that Structured does great is they give out free tape measures to people. So if you go there and you’re like, oh, I left my tape measure at home, I need to buy this couch. But I don’t know all these things. What a great idea. But augmented reality is just going to replace the need for that entirely. I’m buying a new couch.

Okay? Place the couch in my living room, change the color, change the specs, change the size. How does it look, how does it fit? Send that to my wife, or my girlfriend, or my partner and get them to weigh in on it as well. And you can have an entire in-person shopping experience virtually. And I think that is the key. That is always the challenge with e-commerce. Right. Especially for larger purchases. Buying a TV, I kind of want to go and see that first.

Ellie:
Right?

Cole:
And so it’s going to completely blur the line between in-person and online shopping.

Ellie:
That’s super interesting. That leads me to my other question about scaling. As businesses, including Shopify, continue to scale, do you believe you’ll be able to maintain the sort of customized user experience and serve both the smaller and the large players? And what do you think merchants need to consider when looking to scale their businesses?

Cole:
Yeah, that’s a good one too. Shopify is very realistic about the fact that for a lot of businesses, we’re the hub, but for a lot of other businesses, we’re a spoke. And so that’s how we achieve flexibility and scalability, is that we’re not going to be everything for everyone. For some of those entrepreneurs, even for some of those larger businesses, there are a lot of large businesses that are extremely immature. And I don’t mean immature in a bad way, I just mean they have grown so quickly, so fast, that they do not have all of the tools and all of the resources that a lot of other enterprise businesses do. So Shopify might be the hub for a 500 million dollar business, but it might be the spokes for a 100 million dollar business. And so, to answer your question, we’re very realistic about the fact that we will invest in something that we know that we can be the best in the world at.

I still remember the answer. So, one thing about the Shopify platform for a little while, there are several things, but one that stands out for me is we once posed the question, why don’t we build like a booking platform? So, people that have personal trainers or hair salons or car detailers, whatever it may be, people that need to take appointments, why don’t we build something for them? And we ask ourselves the question, can we really be the best in the world at it, or should we be the best in the world at it? There are some great solutions out there, like MINDBODY, for instance, which is big in the fitness area. And so we’re like, well, that’s a great solution, they’re the best in the world. Do we want to beat them in that game? No, we don’t need to. We’ll have them sit on top of Shopify instead.

And so we’ll be what most businesses need most of the time, and then for the other pieces, we’ll get out of your way. We’re not trying to put our fingers into every single part of your business. We know that when we’re the hub. And when we’re the spoke. And so use us for what you need us for and then you know your business best, you drive the other piece. And this is highlighted like in a recent release we did. We released an enterprise offering called e-commerce components. So typically when you sign up for Shopify, you sign up, you pay a monthly bill, and you get everything. But a lot of businesses might not want that. Hey, Shopify, you’ve got a great checkout. Get out of the way of my online store. I just want to use your checkout. And so a lot of things like e-commerce components and composable e-commerce will enable us to scale into those enterprise-level businesses.

And over time, they may adopt more of Shopify’s offerings. But that’s a big piece of how we’re going to still be the entrepreneurship company. But we’re going to scale up into the enterprise as well. And to my knowledge, there isn’t anyone in the e-commerce space who has done that well. There are very good enterprise companies, there’s very good entry-level SaaS software. There’s not anyone that’s yet scaled across that entire spectrum.

Ellie:
And in terms of your merchants, what advice would you give them when they’re looking to grow their business?

Cole:
It definitely just like we focus on problems with our customers. That would be the same piece of advice that I would give an understanding that everything’s not going to be perfect. So some of my favorite merchants to talk to are some of the most successful ones. And not because they’re successful, but because of why they’re successful or in my eyes, why they’re successful. They also make my job a lot more fun and a lot easier because we talk with a lot of these merchants about lacking functionality problems that they have things that they would like us to invest in and fix for them. But when we tell them very transparently, hey, we understand the problem, it’s actually not going to be something that we’re investing in, or at least it’s not going to be something that we’re investing in now. They’re happy to make that concession.

They understand what are the critical problems for their business, and they understand that they need to focus on those critical problems. There are other pieces that are not going to be perfect. So, never focus on perfection. Prioritize the customer experience and think about spending your time on critical problems. That meme, which is there’s the dog sitting at the table, and there’s a fire going on. And the way that it was described to me once is that this happens in my job, but this happens when you’re running a business as well. There’s going to be so many things on fire. Imagine a street with houses, and they’re all on fire. Now, the one that it’s got people in it, there’s a lot of danger going there, whereas you got one over here which is just kind of starting to smolder.

It’s pretty obvious which one you’re going to pick, right? You’re going to go save the people. You’re going to put that fire out. It’s critical. Focus on that problem. And so I think that understanding that there’s always going to be fires around, you don’t focus on the one that’s smoldering. Focus on the one that’s burning. Might be a bit of a negative when I look at it, but I think it also reflects reality, right?

Ellie:
Yeah. I love that meme, by the way. And finally, what advice would you give to businesses who are looking to maximize their use of Shopify or other similar e-commerce platforms?

Cole:
I think spend a lot of time understanding what your platform does well, so every platform has its strengths and weaknesses. So like I say, this is probably more important for more established businesses. I think if you’re starting a brand new business and you’re selling something online for the first time, obviously, Shopify does a fantastic job of this, but your decision is going to be kind of far less critical. Most of these platforms offer the same basic set of features that are going to allow someone to begin for the first time. Shopify is the best in the world at that, but largely, you’re going to get what you need. But as a more established business, thinking about what I was saying before, figure out what that 20% is, figure out what the platform is not good at, and how you’re going to what’s the word I’m looking for?

How are you going to supplement? Yes, exactly. That’s it. Thank you. Figure out what the 20% is and how you are going to supplement that. And if the 20% of that platform, something that they don’t do very well, is critical for your business, it’s probably not the right platform for you. So let’s say you do a lot of your business wholesale, and you sell wholesale online. You need LTL shipments, which is basically know, instead of a USPS or a FedEx coming and picking up a single package, LTL is, they’ll come, and they’ll pick up an entire crate, and they’ll put it on the truck. If your platform doesn’t have built-in LTL options and that’s critical to your business, that shouldn’t be part of the 20%, that should be part of the 80%, and it’s not quite right for you. So, understanding everything that they offer, but more importantly, understanding the things that they’re not good at.

The other thing I would focus on is what your platform is going to do to help you get customers. When I was building my first ever website, I had a friend back in New Zealand, Daniel Phillips, who’s a very experienced digital marketer, and I was building this website, and I was showing it to him, and he was like, Stop. He was like, Would you rather spend $1,000 on this website and have ten people look at it, or spend $10 on this website and have 1000 people look at it? And I was like, oh, yeah. And he was like, you’re thinking about this the wrong way. What is your platform going to do to get eyes on your product? You’re only going to learn about how you can iterate and how you can make it better by getting eyes on the product. There’s another saying, I think it’s the CEO of LinkedIn who said this.

He said, if you’re not embarrassed by the first version of your launch, you launch too late. And so that would be my advice as well, is think about getting eyes on products. Not thinking about it, I need the perfect functionality. So again, evaluate your platform based on how it is going to help you get customers.

Ellie:
I love that. So that would be extremely difficult for a perfectionist, I guess.

Cole:
Exactly.

Ellie:
Any final words that you want to leave our listeners with before we wrap up?

Cole:
No, I think this is, to a certain extent, another cliche, but fall in love with the problem. And I think that applies to so many different areas of business. Whether you’re like me and you’re working on software, and you’re speaking to customers, whether you’re selling a product online, whether you’re working for a large corporate entity, whatever it may be, really fall in love with the problem that you’re trying to solve. Avoid getting married to a solution. Because if I look at all the most successful individuals, whether people that I know personally or I’ve just observed in the media, they are so obsessed with falling in love with the problem. And I think that can apply to so many different industries, so many different verticals, and so many different careers.

Ellie:
That’s fantastic advice. Thank you so much, Cole, for joining us today. We really appreciate it.

Cole:
Yeah, thanks for having me. That was fun. Thank you.

The post Ep 5. – Shopify – E-Commerce’s New Frontier, with Cole Atkinson. appeared first on Kadence.

Transcript

Intro

Welcome to The Elusive Consumer. Today, Ellie is speaking with Meghan Reynolds, vice president of marketing at ŌURA, a leader in wearable technology. Join us as Meghan shares her insights on data-driven strategies, the impact of wearable technology on the health and wellness industry, and the importance of authenticity in marketing. Let’s get started right now on The Elusive Consumer.

Ellie Tehrani:

Well, thank you so much for joining today. I understand you must be incredibly busy working for a company like ŌURA. You must have a lot to do with your time, so we appreciate it. Welcome to The Elusive Consumer. We’re just trying to understand a little more about you, your professional and personal journey, and what led you to what you do today. And I would love to hear a little bit more about what data and insights mean to you in your day-to-day work. So, let’s start with talking a little bit about Meghan and what your professional career has looked like that brought you to ŌURA.

Meghan Reynolds:

Awesome. Yeah, thank you for having me. This is going to be fun. I’ve spent probably about 18, or 20 years in the marketing field. I always say there are two times at which I sort of fell into it. So one was when I first started, it was after 9/11, I thought I was going to move to New York, get a high-powered job, and really start my career. 9/11, unfortunately, put a damper on a lot of things, one was my job search. And so I ended up working for a smaller company startup back in the day with PalmPilots. Pretty funny. So it was tech, but a very different tech, and got a really good broad understanding of how to take a product to market and what it means to work with a bigger product like Palm. At the time they were a big brand. I worked through PR, marketing comms, little bit of advertising, how to work with customer service, what we tell people once we’ve launched this thing, and how we solve customer problems.

From there, I worked at a bunch of smaller companies and went to grad school for a brief period. Really thought I was going to go into the public sector. Very interested in foreign service and just how business operates globally, not just in our own country. Realize I’m not a public sector person, I am a private sector person. I’m action-oriented, probably why I lasted at Amazon so long. And then I say where I ended up now I fell into it again, sort of good occurrence. I was laid off in the recession of 2009. So I always tell people, a layoff is not the end of the world, right? Good things come out of it. So I was laid off and had to just take a break from interviewing. I was doing pharmaceutical healthcare advertising at the time and did not like it. It was not something that didn’t wake me up every morning. I was kind, “Ugh, do I have to do this?”

And so I took a break, and I went and worked at Lululemon. Worked in a store, just decided to clear my brain, refocus, and start, and then give it a couple of months. Ended up loving it, became a manager, opened up stores, and was able to start working with them in corporate, with the New York stores in corporate, advertising, or the in-store yoga online. So Facebook had identified Lululemon back in the day as a good brand, a unique brand to test into some of their early offerings like event pages and things like that. And so we got to experiment and run betas with Facebook about how do we take this amazing local grassroots marketing that we had and put it on digital. And that sparked my… I was like, “This is fascinating. Look at how many more people we can get look at.” I know when they clicked on the page. They can raise their hand and say, “I want to join.” And then we have an idea of how many people are actually coming.

So that resonated with me, and then that’s what started doing more with Lululemon. I went on to another small company called Ragnar Relay, which launched all of its digital and social. And then, from there, I got to work at Adidas, and that was great. That was so fun. That is a brand that has a good amount of money, has a good amount of risk tolerance, and they want to explore. They were pushing the boundaries back in 2013, and 2014 of social and video and how do we get their shoes into how do we get the eyeballs of the right people. There, I got a job at Amazon, and that also changed how I approach digital media. Worked at Amazon for about six and a half years, two different stints. Now I’m at ŌURA after a few small hops with some smaller companies, and I love ŌURA. I run all of their media and acquisition, and we’re looking into international growth next.

Ellie Tehrani:

Wow, that’s great. I love how each of those roles shaped who you are as a professional today. Some of the key things that you mentioned that got my attention, getting the eyeballs of the right people. How do you do that in today’s world in any kind of role?

Meghan Reynolds:

I wish I had the magic potion, the magic spell for it. It’s actually one of those things that’s oddly fun, you get to figure out. This is why I love being in media and the digital world because it changes. So a year and year and a half ago, everything on… And we’ll just take meta as a platform, everything was interest-based. You could go and target the female who worked out at SoulCycle, and wore Alo pants. You could do all of that and be very, very targeted and really understand what your dollars were doing. And then I want to say about six, eight months ago, Meta was like, “No, no, no, no, just go broad. Just go broad. Pick an objective, we’ll find the right people for you. Trust us.”

Meghan Reynolds:

And so you have to play that game of saying… And we did; we tested both. And it ended up that broad targeting did get us cheaper CPMs, the higher conversion rates. But now we’re still playing into, “Well, let’s do broad, and then how do we still have that interest group? How are we still making sure our messages are hitting the right people?” So we look at it as a bit of balance of both when it comes to digital platforms. So going broad, testing into messaging, and letting the message find the right customer as well as being very targeted of, “Okay, this is much more of a female marketing message.” And then how are we shaping that? What else do we know about her that we can apply to the ad, to our targeting?

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. No, that makes sense. How do you handle that in a market like the US tech where going broad could also risk losing out on the diversity aspect in terms of different ethnicities, different age groups, all that sort of stuff? How do you handle that at ŌURA?

Meghan Reynolds:

So that because of the price point of our product, it’s broad with some interest targeting or some targeting. So it is specific age ranges. If we can do household income, so on TV, for example, I can buy according to household income, we do tend to buy at a certain household level. And above, not below. We’ve seen that conversion rates are much lower below. So I would say it’s broad with some targeting, but it’s not how it used to be where you would go very deep into… Even across OTT and TV, you would be looking at that female who’s watching this type of show. And these were the day parts because we know that’s when she’s watching. Now it’s, “Let’s span or across all day parts on TV, for example, across multiple genders, and ages on Facebook and see what’s hitting.”

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. Okay. No, that makes sense. In terms of ŌURA, let’s talk a little bit about the product and the company’s vision and mission. Could you talk us through what differentiates ŌURA from other wearable devices?

Meghan Reynolds:

Yeah, so ŌURA’s mission is to make health accessible to everyone. We believe that this is something everyone should have access to and be able to understand and use to make better decisions about their health, right? So, we look at sleep as a huge unlock. So if you can get, I’m using quotes here, the right amount of sleep for you, the right REM, the deep sleep, that tends to help unlock a lot of other things in your life. Probably, it’s easier to manage stress, you’re probably going to be a little bit nicer to your coworkers and your kids.

Ellie Tehrani:

Right.

Meghan Reynolds:

Right? You’re much more able to handle things. You probably don’t get sick as much cause you’re allowing your body to rest. So we look at that. I would say our vision is to get this in as many hands as possible, on as many fingers as possible, I should say.

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. So the company has been around for… Is it seven or eight years now?

Meghan Reynolds:

It’ll be 10.

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. And I think I went somewhere, or you have mentioned that it’s still acting as a startup. Is that right?

Meghan Reynolds:

In a sense, yeah. I mean, it’s a hardware-based company, so funding is, it costs a lot of money to fund the product. We have amazing scientists running their research behind everything that can be budget money intensive.

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. For you in a marketing or growth marketing role, how does that impact your work? Coming from a background at an organization like Amazon to ŌURA, how do you approach your work differently, and what do you find yourself doing at ŌURA that is perhaps actually more innovative in terms of your work style than it would’ve been at a larger organization?

Meghan Reynolds:

Yeah, I think one of the biggest things I have to do is slow down. In Amazon, you get very used to… One of the leadership principles is called Bias for Action. And you’re really judged on not how fast you can get things done but how easily adaptable you can be and pick up more projects and figure out how to scale. So at ŌURA, I found that I’ve had to, (and I would say this with the couple of other startups that I’ve worked for recently), slow down, ask a lot more questions, and make sure people have really good ideas.

Meghan Reynolds:

At Amazon, through the doc writing culture, it’s like you get really good at ensuring you have ticked off every risk concern that you have an answer for. You know all the pros, you know all the cons. You’ve looked at this a million different ways. And I find that type of rigorous, I guess, behavior around product launches and campaigns isn’t as much of a practice elsewhere. So I’ve had to slow down, ask a lot more questions, and honestly help steer a little bit of making sure, “Is this the right objective? If this is the objective, okay, what’s then the goal? What K P I are we actually taking away? How will we know if this worked? What do you really want to get out of this campaign?” So it’s probably a little bit more coaching that I’ve had to do here as well. Did I answer your question?

Ellie Tehrani:

No, you did. I’m trying to understand if the sort of data-driven approach that you would’ve been used to at Amazon is something that you’ve carried with you through to your position at ŌURA and if that’s something that startup would also emphasize to collect that data, whether it’s customer data or user data in very different ways to better shape products for the future.

Meghan Reynolds:

Gotcha. Yeah, so that definitely once you’re ingrained with that, it doesn’t lead. I’m lucky enough that we’ve got some really great teammates who work on the data science side and then who work on the consumer insight side. And so there is rigorous data collection and understanding from a, “Will this product work? Will this feature work?” And then, from a consumer standpoint, it’s, “Okay, is this message resonating with the consumer before we go do a full-on campaign?” And then I am working through, I think, where we still have some room to grow, and I see this at a lot of places is, “Okay, we’ve done the work.” Consumers are saying in a focus group, “Yay. Nay.” We bring it into a campaign. And then I’m like, “Okay, now how are we tracking that this worked?”

Meghan Reynolds:

One of the biggest things is people love to… One of the biggest objectives you’ll see, or the number one objective in a campaign, is to drive awareness. Okay, that’s huge. How do you do that? It’s helping educate people about the amount of money that’s needed to break through, and what that really means. I always throw these out in the middle of different meetings that we have. I’m like, “How much do you think an NFL spot costs? How much do you think it costs to be a bachelor?” This is not you’re couple thousand-dollar ads that you see on Meta. But I think a lot of where the work that needs to be done to really drive home a measurement approach at a company is really connecting a KPI back to your objective and not just saying things like, “I want to grow brand awareness.” It’s like, okay, is that in terms of traffic? Traffic in a certain demographic? Is that, “Are we going to do a brand lift study?” So it’s helping get the rest of the team to understand that and to think that way. Whereas at Amazon, it was just very much ingrained.

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. Right. And in terms of some of the research or data that you’ve gathered through your time at ŌURA, have any findings surprised you or anything where you thought you were going to take a product in a certain direction or marketing in a certain direction? Then suddenly you found, “Actually this isn’t going to work at all. Our users aren’t reacting well to this”? Or has that happened to you?

Meghan Reynolds:

No, because what’s interesting is ŌURA, It’s one of these things that when people see the app, because there’s the ring, and people kind of go, “What does this thing do? That doesn’t look like it’s…” It’s not like your iWatch or anything. But when you start to see the app, and you hear word of mouth what this has done and how people talk about it like, “Oh my God, I had a 90 sleep score.” People are like, “What’s a 90 sleep score?”

Meghan Reynolds:

“Oh, that means I had 25% REM,” and they can get into it. And then people are like, “Wait a minute, you could unlock all that data?” So what I’ve found is actually quite the opposite. It’s like all of our messaging, it’s hitting really well because it’s being packaged in a new way. This isn’t just your “How many steps did you take?” The same old thing. We’re really putting sleep as the main focus. I think it also helps that we’re in a really good climate or we’re in a… Now, I shouldn’t say good. We’re in a climate where mental health and wellness and recovery are much more the main talking points, as opposed to probably the ’80s, ’90s, and early 2000s, it was like, “Right. Go. Perform as many spin classes as possible, sweat as much as possible.”

Meghan Reynolds:

So we’re riding that wave of consumer behavior definitely shifting, but it’s kind of shocking to me the messaging that is resonating. I guess in that light, the one message that probably has not resonated as much is you can track your steps in calories … clearly, a product where people are prioritizing health and well-being, and activity is just a piece of it. And so that’s not the thing that’s getting them to buy, right? It’s really the sleep and the accuracy data.

Ellie Tehrani:

So the data itself, I guess it’s user-friendly enough for people to not only read their results and metrics but also understand them and take actions to improve them.

Meghan Reynolds:

Yes. Yes. So, the product was developed in Finland. This is probably just me saying this: I feel like it’s the IKEA of apps.

Ellie Tehrani:

I love that.

Meghan Reynolds:

Meaning, It’s very clear. Where you click, you understand like Macs back in the day. 

Ellie Tehrani:

Right.

Meghan Reynolds:

You just move. Of course, this is where you move things. This is how you intuitively would use something like a screen. So, I think we’ve done a really nice job of breaking down the information. I mean, we definitely have some ways to make sure that some of the data is cleaner and easier to understand because it can get really complicated with your heart rate variability and then your temperature and why your temperature would spike and not spike. So it’s pretty clean and easy. And I think people… It also has a score, it’s a marker of time, right? Like, “Okay, I had an 80 yesterday; now I’m at an 85. Okay, what changed?”

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. Wearable devices have been around for many years. We’re getting people to use them continuously. Something that I’ve read about ŌURA, it seems like people tend to wear it more often than they would wear, say, a watch. And I’m wondering if that’s something that then leads them to actually continue to improve on their health journey as they see the patterns.

Meghan Reynolds:

Yep. Well, you bring up two good points that I think do lead to people being able to catch being sick or potentially more serious diseases is that it is fairly easy to wear. If you’re not used to wearing rings, that is one thing. But we give you a sizing kit, and we ask you to wear that sizing kit for a few days to see how the ring fits as your fingers swell throughout the day and night. So it doesn’t move as much as a watch. So that’s the big thing. The watch tends to shift. They’re kind of bulky. And then the next thing is people don’t like to sleep with a watch on, and the batteries die faster. So by having the ring on at night, that’s obviously when you’re getting your sleep data, but that’s when you can get a lot cleaner data in terms of what your heart rate is doing, your breathing, and your temperature. And so, by having potentially six to eight hours of very little movement in the same spot, we get very accurate data.

Ellie Tehrani:

Understood. Okay. And in terms of that data, with the focus on data privacy and security, how do you balance that? The need to collect large amounts of data for research purposes, for improving products with the responsibility to protect user data?

Meghan Reynolds:

We take it very seriously. Everything has to go through our privacy team. Everything is in the app because there are no ads on the app, nothing is sold, and everything is hidden in terms of user IDs and hashes.

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. Okay. And, how do you see the developments of different algorithms and innovations that your team is building on at ŌURA contributing to the broader landscape of health and wellness? And what other potentials do you see for wearable technology?

Meghan Reynolds:

Oh, that’s a good question. Well, I personally love having a more lightweight, less screen-focused wearable. Everything is a screen these days, right?

Ellie Tehrani:

Right.

Meghan Reynolds:

So it’s so nice just to be able to go and not… I mean, because I wear a Garmin constantly. I’m still slightly unsure of how fast I am running and how many hours I have worked out this month. And so I think there’s something really nice about slowing down and having more of the Scandinavian outlook of Finland’s always voted the happiest country, and they probably have a lot fewer screens. And I’m hoping ŌURA can contribute to that and that wearables have a go towards that so that it’s more holistic as opposed to these very intense moments in our life where it’s running as fast as you can, burning the most calories.

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. Right. I like that, the slowing down and going out into nature. I actually grew up in Sweden, and we had a lot of that. Yeah, it’s all about heading out into nature, keeping a healthy lifestyle, and not constantly looking at a screen like you mentioned.

Meghan Reynolds:

Yeah, I’m so jealous of this. When they talk about it, they’re like, “Yeah, we just did our…” I think they call it a Nordic … Is it a Nordic sauna where they go, and they do?

Ellie Tehrani:

Oh yes.

Meghan Reynolds:

Yeah, the sauna, and then they go through the lake plunge?

Ellie Tehrani:

Yes. Yeah, I would not recommend that personally, but many people enjoy it. In terms of the consumer side of things,, let’s look at the users. What do you think are some of the biggest challenges that are facing consumers in the health and wellness space today, and how can technology, in general, help address those challenges?

Meghan Reynolds:

Yeah. Wait, so this is me anecdotally. So I think it’s two things. It’s access to your data, and then it’s understanding what that means. So you’ll go to the doctor, and they’ll run a scan, and they have this huge printout, and then they sort of run through it with a bunch of acronyms and crazy medical terms, and you’re like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa.” You’re like, “Okay, break that down for me.” And I always think about it as, when you have a really good analyst or your technical product manager, if he or she can translate the crazy gobbledygook of engineering and data and development, that’s what we need doctors to do more of, right? “I need that. Draw the ‘so what’ out for me and in a way that I can do something with it.”

Meghan Reynolds:

I think I’m hoping with more things like ŌURA… And there are other rings coming out, and I’m sure Apple and Google, are working on a whole other slew of features for us to understand how to be healthier, that what it’s doing is empowering the consumer to take better care of themselves and to go seek out the specific things that they might need as opposed to always waiting for something to happen. Then, a doctor has to describe it. So it’s kind of both, right? It’s giving the data, the information to the consumer, but then I’m really hoping this also helps the doctors and the medical professionals explain it a little bit more easily and in a more human layperson fashion.

EllieTehrani:

Right. You brought up a good point there in terms of the healthcare professional because as we move away from that sort of reactive healthcare towards a proactive one, how do you think the healthcare professional will be open? Will they be accepting of these types of devices? Do you think that they’ll feel like the data is valid for them to use? What are your thoughts on that?

Meghan Reynolds:

That’s a good question. I would hope the ones who are more open, I would hope they would adopt it and also look at it with a critical eye. Ideally, they should push the wearable and tech industries to do more peer-reviewed studies and make sure that what is… And that’s one of the things that I would say ŌURA does really well, and I would assume Apple and Google probably do this as well. But it takes years to develop some of these products because of the rigorous testing and the amount of testing that they want to do to make sure this is stat sick and that it can be verified and then rolled out and actually have the same results when it’s hundreds of thousands of people, not hundreds of people.

Meghan Reynolds:

I would hope doctors would look at it as a way to help facilitate care, too, as opposed to always having to wait to say like, “If you had come to me six months earlier,” maybe now some of this helps to provide those warning signals to consumers so that they can go to the doctor and say, “Something’s off. My temperature keeps spiking, or I’m not sleeping well. And here’s the data.” And then something can hopefully be useful.

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. Let’s return to the marketing aspect for a bit. You mentioned through some of your previous experiences that the world of digital marketing opened your eyes to the insights you were gathering. I want to talk about the influencer marketing campaigns. What are your thoughts on those? And particularly in a world with so many social media platforms targeting various age groups, some of whom might be more vulnerable to media, what are your thoughts there?

Meghan Reynolds:

That’s very much a love-hate relationship. Recognize the power that they have. If you align yourself with influencers who understand that power and hold it with responsibility, you can get really good marketing out of it that’s authentic, and it doesn’t just feel like influencer A pushing the 100th product of the week.

Meghan Reynolds:

And so I do think it needs to be approached very thoughtfully. And that’s why I think some of it, I totally get the companies that have figured out platforms to scale, but I don’t know if that’s… For certain products, it could be great. I don’t know if it’s the best product for something related to health, right? Because it is very personal. So you want to make sure that the person that you’re contracting with to speak on your company’s behalf really understands the product. We’ve had some really great experiences with influencers, and I think we know that in a couple of different ways. One, their audience did respond really well, but two, they continuously talked about it even after being paid. It’s over, it’s done, their contract is done, and they’re still wearing it. They still talk about it on Instagram or TikTok, and it still comes up as something that they would recommend. So it’s really nice to see that. “Okay, we did pick the right one.”

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. And part of what you mentioned goes back to the consistency and authenticity. How do you consistently represent your brand across different marketing channels and campaigns?

Meghan Reynolds:

It can be hard. I kind of look at it differently from an organic versus paid perspective. So organic, if they’re going out and they’re trying to find as many, let’s just again use females, females, who do yoga who are focusing on sleep, and they’re just asking them to create some content, and it’s being put on their channels, there’s not as much you can do to force a brand message. If it’s on paid, then I want them to be very specific so that the message is correct it is on brand, and we’re not saying anything that would be legally incorrect, for example.

Meghan Reynolds:

But I have to say it is hard, and that’s where I always have to bring in the creative team. I want to make sure that the brief, whether it’s my team, the media team writing it, the creative, or the brand team, is the brief getting to put forward what we need. But then, is it also resonating with the influencer? Because you can tell if they’re just reading something. So, it tends to take a little bit longer. It’s not something that we don’t really have on one of those influencer platforms where we just hit a button, and we light people up. It’s a little bit more. It’s personal briefings. It’s getting people to understand the product. We want them to use it. We typically say, “Use it for a month, and you can speak authentically about it.”

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. And the word authenticity is something that is widely discussed lately within various organizations, particularly in tech. Do you feel that this is now becoming one of those popular words companies throw around? Or do you feel like there are organizations out there that are actually creating products with authenticity in mind or thinking of their end user? Could you give examples of that through your professional career where you’ve seen that the data gathered or the research done is actually being used for good? Because we often talk about data being used for good.

Meghan Reynolds:

Yeah, mm-hmm, that’s a great point. I’ll say I think authenticity is being overused in a marketing sense. I think from a product perspective, from what I have seen, especially at ŌURA, what is being developed is helping solve problems. This might not be a problem that thousands of people have said, but it’s pulling those insights out of the customer service, inquiries, emails, or things you read online. Reading through social it can be a wasteland of just horrible comments. You can find some really good gems that help infuse future product learning.

Meghan Reynolds:

So I don’t have a lot of specific ones, but I do know at Amazon, as they were developing new features for Alexa and what she could do and the voice services, a lot of it would come from social comments or emails that Amazon… Usually, it went up through a Jeff, but talking about how Alexa helped with something in their life, helped with a child, it helped with an elderly parent or grandparent. And that would usually spur, “Okay, well, how do we make that better? How could we roll that out?” So, it’s a key feature that people would know to ask Alexa for. That was always nice to see because it would pull through the brief. So when the brief came to the marketing team, we would know, “Hey, this is from a customer. The customer had requested this or said that this is how Alexa has helped.” So now we want to let people know, “Hey, you could use her in this way.”

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. Okay. And in terms of changes in the market, whether it’s due to unexpected changes in the world that happen with a pandemic or geopolitical changes, how do you pivot your marketing strategy? And are you currently thinking ahead, considering what’s happened in the world over the last few years in terms of your existing role to what might be next and how you can develop more future-proof marketing strategies?

Meghan Reynolds:

Yeah. Oh, good one. So what’s coming to mind right now is ChatGPT?

Ellie Tehrani:

Right.

Meghan Reynolds:

And an AI, and what does that mean for marketers, content creators, and copywriters? The way I look at it is it’s almost like it’s the discovery phase. Gather all the data. I’ve asked my team, I was like, “Let’s sign up for it, and let’s start… What do you get? You asked this question, I’ll ask this question. Or we asked the same… What are the responses? What does it look like?” And so we are playing around with it now, and that’s typically what I like to do. I remember when Snapchat came out back in the day, right? And it was like, “What do we do with Snapchat?” And this is what I love about Adidas. They said, “Everyone goes sign up for it and play around with it and then come back in two weeks and let’s round table. What do you like? What do you not like? What made sense? Will this work for our customers?”

Meghan Reynolds:

So I think marketers need to utilize the tools and seek to understand and not make crazy decisions. I mean, there are those brands that just jump, and you’re kind of like, “Oh God, that was a good risk” because it paid off, doing one of the first big Snapchat campaigns. But I tend to encourage my teams to explore research and figure it out so that we can then answer questions because you know it will always come up. I mean, it’s already been asked. You know the CEO, you know someone will say, “Why are we using this?” Like messaging bots with Facebook, when that first came out, the automatic messaging bots, right? I remember that one actually. Everyone was very scared about that we would just say the wrong thing and really turn someone off at Amazon. So yeah, I think you have to be able to be nimble and adapt to it. But I personally tend to be someone who’s probably a little bit slower to utilize it. I want to understand, I want to see some case studies. What did the brand down the street do?

EllieTehrani:

Right. Right. You like to slow down and review first before you dip your toe into it. That makes perfect sense. I want to talk a little bit about your contributions to Team Fox. You have been running as a coach for them. Could you talk to us a little bit about that and how that has approached your leadership style and teamwork and professional life in general?

Meghan Reynolds:

Yeah. Oh, thank you for bringing this up. This is one of those things that it sounds so cheesy, but it brings so much joy. It feels like, “Oh, I get to give someone some information that’s truly just for them to go do this crazy thing called running a marathon.” And so yeah, we’ve been working with them for, I want to say, almost ten years now, and love it. We’ve unfortunately had a lot of connections to Parkinson’s, and that’s what spurred us to work with them. Hopper running is my kind of side hustle with a girlfriend from college. We started way back in the day.

Meghan Reynolds:

And so I think one of the things that it helps me with is remembering where you place emphasis. And this was really key during Amazon because Amazon, I always say, I’m like, “That New York Times article is true.” It is true what you hear. It is all-encompassing and it’s really hard to pinpoint why. But it was always nice to then take the time and to have calls with the runners to go to the events and see these people doing something so selfless, raising all this money, doing running because their family member or their good friend had Parkinson’s. So it really helped me remember work is not everything and that there’s other stuff going on. And then people do these amazing, amazing things for other people.

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. Right. I think that’s encouraging to hear and see also, because I think for a lot of younger generation that are now growing up in a world where you have to succeed in any shape or form, sometimes it’s all about also what success looks like. I always like to ask this question, what is success to you? What does it mean to you? Because it’s not always what you might think, and how you get there is not always what you might think. So could you talk to us a little bit about that?

Meghan Reynolds:

Oh, I love that. Yeah. I mean, that’s another great point just to go back. Yeah, I mean, because even when I was running marathons, it was all about how fast I could run it. And these people are like, “I just want to finish it.” And I’m like, “What’ll get you there then?” And it was really refreshing. So, thank you for reminding me of that.

Meghan Reynolds:

Oh, and then I love that question because if you had asked me 20 years ago what success looked like, I would’ve been like, “I am going to be a high-powered CMO. I will be the leader. I will do all these things. I will make all this money.” And now, honestly, I just want to be able to not work during the weekends. I want to be able to enjoy life with my family and friends. And honestly, since I’ve had the pleasure of managing some really amazing people over the last few years, I want them to succeed.

Meghan Reynolds:

Lululemon taught me this, and I’ve never forgotten it, and I think people kind of look at me like I’m cockeyed, “Why would you focus on this?” I’ve always wanted to find the person who will take my role. Like, “Who is my predecessor? Who am I leaving this to so that I can go off and either do a different job or expand my scope and learn something else and know that everything that we built is not going to fall apart because I’m not there? Who is the person who can do this?” So I really love managing people, and I think success to me looks like my team doing well. They’re the ones leading the meetings. They’re the ones getting the pats on the back, right? Yeah, so it’s come full circle where it’s like, I don’t necessarily care that much about me, I want them to shine because I’d much rather… They can do the work on the weekends. No, I’m kidding.

Ellie Tehrani:

No, but I love that. And they do say that what sets a great leader apart is one who leaves many leaders behind them. So I truly like that.

Meghan Reynolds:

I wasn’t always like that. It was definitely-

EllieTehrani:

No.

Meghan Reynolds:

I did not necessarily want that mentality, but it’s fostering now.

Ellie Tehrani:

Great. Well, Meghan, is there anything else that you would like our listeners to know about life and working in marketing, at tech companies, and at startups that we haven’t discussed today?

Meghan Reynolds:

I think the one thing that whenever I talk to… I go back to my grad school quite a bit and talk to undergrads and graduates who are in my program. I think the biggest thing I always say to them is like, to have a great plan but accept the left-hand turns. Take the left-hand turn. It’s okay to kind of start over after working for seven years if you want to learn something new. It’s always building, and it’ll always help you. So, I encourage people to take risks, change jobs, and really figure out what’s going to make them happy. Don’t just sit there and force yourself to do a job because that’s what your teachers, your parents, or someone you thought success looked like.

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. And to end the note on the consumer side of things, what would you say to consumers out there today who might be hesitant to use wearable technology, for instance, for various reasons? How would you tell them that this might actually be something that could help you in your health journey?

Meghan Reynolds:

Yeah. I thought you were going to go a different way with that question. I’ll answer [inaudible 00:41:50]. I thought you were going to ask me in a minute. I would encourage them to do the research and figure out how I ask my team, “Okay, what do you really want to get out of this campaign? What do you want out of your health? Or why are you even considering a wearable?” And I would say that I think it’s definitely an additive to your life. I don’t think it’s the end all and be all by any means. I think it provides extra data, another view into what’s going on with you, right?

Meghan Reynolds:

Because back in the day when I was taking yoga, I had this great teacher, and she used to always say to us, she’d be like, “Get up in front of the mirror and then turn your head and look.” She goes, “Because no one knows where their ass is in space.” You don’t, right? And so I think the wearables and things like that, just like getting a pair, but all of this is helpful data and helpful ways for you to really understand what’s going on and then to ask the right questions, hopefully to the right people.

EllieTehrani:

Brilliant.

Meghan Reynolds:

What I thought you were going to ask was what would I ask consumers just in general about marketing. I was going to say, please don’t turn off all privacy. Let us serve you relevant ads.

Ellie Tehrani:

Right. Right. I love that. Yeah, don’t be afraid to share some data.

Meghan Reynolds:

Well, some data, right? I want to make sure you see the right ad. I don’t want to start serving you dog food and that… You don’t like that.

Ellie Tehrani:

That’s great. Well, thank you so much for your time with us today. We really appreciate you taking the time. It’s been wonderful speaking to you.

The post Ep 4. – Insights and Authenticity in Wearable Technology, with Meghan Reynolds. appeared first on Kadence.